(Errata) Question for PSW 234/4 (76.)

Hutch

Curator of the ASL Armory
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
1,515
Reaction score
226
Location
FL
Country
llUnited States
The Vehicle listing for this counter lists Note Q. The "C" counter has a CMG; but there is not a notation on the back of the counter regarding the "MG:VCA Only".

Is the counter correct, and Note Q was a misprint or is the counter wrong?

There is no listing at the MMP site or any of the old annuals/journals regarding this. Thanks in advance.

Reid jacdbear@bellsouth.net
 

The Purist

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,940
Reaction score
45
Location
In my castle by the sea
Country
llCanada
Well,...the way I see it is thus:

The MA is NT and not AA capable. Therefore, despite the vehicle being OT the CMG would only be able to fire in the VCA. That being the case there is no real need for the counter to have 'MG: VCA only' on the back.

I'm NRBH so I may have missed something. :D
 

WaterRabbit

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
2,566
Reaction score
28
Location
Somewhere
Country
llGreenland
I think you mean counter C of 234/3.

By your reasoning, there would also be no need for it to have Note Q. So, either the counter is wrong, or Note 76 and the Vehicle Listing is wrong.

Also, the other thing I have wondered is why the black AFV/GUN counter from ABTF don't have there Special Ammuniton #s increased? They represent SS, so C8.2 applies. Why didn't they just print that on the counters, so we wouldn't have had to remember?
 
Last edited:

WaterRabbit

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
2,566
Reaction score
28
Location
Somewhere
Country
llGreenland
Potential Errata in German Vehicle Listings

A quick persual of the German Vehicle listings uncovers the following potential errata. I have not found any offical errata on any of this.


Note 7 & 8: Inconsistent with APCR convention.
Note 9.3: what does the superscript “f” on note “d” refer to in the Notes column ? (Also, inconsitent numbering of daggers -- only listing to do this, for Germans at least)
Note 37.1: Wgt and BPV are missing.
Note 38: No RF and Date of Availability are listed for the optional CMG.
Note 55: H is missing dagger.
Note 64: Number of counter is 4 not 2.
Note 66.1: Missing Note A. Also, Is the To Kill DR really resolved on the MG column and not the 20L column as listed in the vehicle note?
Note 67.2: Caliber missing overscore on table.
Note 72: PSW 232 listed as (8 rad) but not in vehicle note.
Note 76: counter C missing “MG:VCA only” or possibly Note Q doesn’t apply.
Note 82.1: Caliber missing overscore on table.
Note 87: Should not have overscore on 37L AA gun in table.
Note 90: note itself should have dagger corresponding to dagger on MA
 

The Purist

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,940
Reaction score
45
Location
In my castle by the sea
Country
llCanada
"By your reasoning, there would also be no need for it to have Note Q. So, either the counter is wrong, or Note 76 and the Vehicle Listing is wrong."

In this vehicles case note Q may only be explaining the date of availabilty for the CMG. Note Q explains that there is an optional 4FP CMG available from 9/44 onwards, and that it may only fire within the VCA. The vehicle is missing the "MG:VCA Only" but I fail to see it being absolutely necessary. As I said before the MA is NT and not AA, as such the only direction the CMG could fire would be within the VCA. The only reason that I can think of for the 'caution' about the usage of this CMG is because the vehicle is OT and they want to avoid the CMG being used an an AA weapon. Many open top vehicles have CMGs that can be used as AA weapons (ie, the US M15A1 MGMC, US veh note 37) but these are usually on turreted AA AFVs.

Other applications of note Q are The StuG IIIG(L)(note 35), StuH 42(L)(note 35), which adds an AAMG and CMG both restricted to the VCA. The SPW 250/8 and SPW 251/9 (note 60 and 64), also has note Q and here, again, the vehicles are both OT and NT.

Therefore, members of the jury, I submit, in summation that it (note Q) is there as a 'caution' against use as an AA weapon. It may seem obvious to the more experienced player but could possibly help prevent newer players from making the error.

Good Lord,...would you look how wordy this became. Pardon my babbling. :hush:
 
Last edited:

WaterRabbit

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
2,566
Reaction score
28
Location
Somewhere
Country
llGreenland
Hmm, the jury is not convinced. :p Your reasoning about a " 'caution' against use as an AA weapon" seems a bit convoluted. Such status is granted to a German vehicle by either note A, b, or its specific note.

The Stug IIIG(L) and StuH 42(L) both have a 5-pointed star next to the CMG and a 6-pointed star next to the AAMG. A 5-pointed star indicates pertinent information is on the back of the counter. The 6-pointed star indicates the vehicle note needs to be consulted. Clearly, the 5-pointed star refers to note Q and the 6-pointed star refers to note O.

As you pointed out, the CMG can only fire in the VCA due to it both being a NT vehicle. Interestingly enough all of the vehicles that note Q applies to are NT. Additionally, none of these vehicles is granted AA capability by note A or by their specific note.

Therefore, both the notation on the counter and the restrictions on the CMG of note Q are superfluous -- i.e. the application of note Q can only refer to the date of availability and RF for the optional armament.

So, I stand corrected, the notation on the PSW 234/3 counter is correct. The notation on the other four vehicles is incorrect as well as note Q. ;)
 

The Purist

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,940
Reaction score
45
Location
In my castle by the sea
Country
llCanada
"Therefore, both the notation on the counter and the restrictions on the CMG of note Q are superfluous -- i.e. the application of note Q can only refer to the date of availability and RF for the optional armament."

I can't but agree. One does wonder about the "MG:VCA Only" business though. Ah, well, chalk it up to one of ASL's little unexplained mysteries. :)
 

Carl

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
Location
South Carolina
Country
llUnited States
WaterRabbit said:
Therefore, both the notation on the counter and the restrictions on the CMG of note Q are superfluous -- i.e. the application of note Q can only refer to the date of availability and RF for the optional armament.
I don't think so. D1.82. Based on the Vehicular Notes, the counter should have a CMG:VCA only which would limit the CMG, even for a non-turreted AFV, different from other CMGs based on D1.82.

Unfortunately, isimulacrum does not contain scans for BV#2 (front or back.) So I don't know if this was fixed in BV#2.

Could a different designation for the further restriction have been used since CMGs are limited to VCA for non-turreted AFV? Sure.

Hope this helps.

Carl
 
Last edited:

WaterRabbit

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
2,566
Reaction score
28
Location
Somewhere
Country
llGreenland
I think the point you are trying to make is that NT Vehicles with the "CMG: VCA Only" designation cannot use their CMG to make CC attacks.

Both "The Purist" and I forgot about that. So, given that, the counter for the 234/3 ID C is incorrect.
 

The Purist

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,940
Reaction score
45
Location
In my castle by the sea
Country
llCanada
Ahah! That is correct. A11.62 is quite clear and D1.82 adds some more detail.

Also note that the AAMG on the StuG IIIG and StuH 42, may also only be fired thru the VCA and as such could not be used in CC (if manned). The (L) models of both, however, may only use their AA while BU (remote control), and not against aerial targets targets, but this time it may be used in CC. :nuts: See notes O and P.

My Gawd, it truly does pay to read those vehicle notes. Now if I can only remember all this for the next time I have to tackle StuGs.
 

Hutch

Curator of the ASL Armory
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
1,515
Reaction score
226
Location
FL
Country
llUnited States
Carl: For your question; if BV 2 corrected 234/3 "C" the answer is negitive.

-Hutch
 
Top