"Enemy at the Gates" - Russian look.....

[laszlo.nemedi]

There are plenty of war movies that put the US troops in the negative spotlight.

For example, "Platoon" is an anti-war movie, "Full Metal Jacket" as well, and then some more. Very few war movies are made in positive light, and all of them are mostly recent made such as "Band of Brothers" and "Saving Private Ryan."

Granted, most of the negative light is mainly on the Vietnam Conflict, but nonetheless the US troops do sometime get a bad rap.

Dan

There was a lot of positive human in the platoon, so it is not generally bad people, only some criminal did all the bad...

And maybe Vietnam was the first/last? war where a lot of people was (at the end) against the war...

 

[Cheetah772]

There was a lot of positive human in the platoon, so it is not generally bad people, only some criminal did all the bad...

And maybe Vietnam was the first/last? war where a lot of people was (at the end) against the war...

Don't hold your breath...Vietnam won't be the last war to be made in negative spotlight.

I'll bet you in 10 years, there will be Hollywood movies about Bush & Cheney chasing after oil and ordering the US troops to murder the innocent Iraqis over a barrel of oil.

For a while, Hollywood might be cordial toward the US troops, but it's mainly based on how the directors are portraying the US troops. It's all in hands of a move director. But as general rule, Hollywood is overtly liberal and often sports anti-American themes and liberal ideas.

That's why I don't watch TV or movies a lot. Mostly, I like to read good books, as they don't have ads, and can be way less objective than movies. I prefer to let my imagination do the all dirty work...

Dan

 

[Dr Zaius]

(I cannot remember a film where USA soldiers were in negative role, apart from some criminal who later was punished by good American guys. As I say it is not a problem, but the huge unbalance. You are a wise guy who know much about history, but the average people easily accept the showed stereotype.)

You obviously don't watch many movies do you? Do you watch using subtitles, or in the original English? I have found that many movies really butcher the film when they add subtitles or dub.

Let's take a look shall we...

Saving Private Ryan: one soldier was a coward who let his fellow soldiers die just yards away; two soldiers are shown shooting German prisoners attempting to surrender while a commissioned officer observes and does nothing; the majority of the squad elects to execute a German POW rather than deal with the burden, which then leads to an event in which a junior enlisted soldier is threatened at gunpoint by a senior NCO while the squad observes, several soldiers refuse to obey orders throughout the course of the movie.

Band of Brothers: NCOs mutiny against an unpopular officer; throughout the course of the movie both soldiers and NCOs refuse to obey orders and go unpunished; a commissioned officer falsifies a combat report and lies about having completed a recon mission with the apparent approval of all the NCOs; a drunk soldier kills another US soldier and is then beaten and threatened by a commissioned officer, a commissioned officer executes multiple German POWs while other US soldiers observe; US soldiers are shown looting and stealing from German civilians at will.

The Thin Red Line: commissioned officers order US soldiers on suicide missions in order to advance their own careers with no apparent concern for the welfare of their troops; US soldiers are shown deserting their unit (repeat offenders); commissioned officers refuse to obey orders while in combat; Japanese POWs are subjected to random beatings, verbal abuse and racial slurs; US soldiers shown lying in order to avoid hazardous assignments; US soldiers shown looting dead enemy soldiers and removing gold teeth.

Platoon: US soldiers shown executing civilians and threatening children; US soldiers shown raping Vietnamese girls; US soldiers shown using illegal drugs with approval from NCOs; platoon sergeant murders squad leader; enlisted soldier murders platoon sergeant; entire chain of command depicted as weak, uncaring, and incompetent; soldiers shown using self-inflicted wounds to avoid combat; rampant racism and incompetence on the part of all assigned NCOs; US soldiers use fresh recruits as cannon fodder to avoid personal danger.

Courage Under Fire: one soldier is a coward; one soldier is a drug addict; one soldier is incompetent; one soldier is a murderer; soldiers refuse to obey any order they don't like throughout the movie; US forces seen arming a MEDEVAC helicopter and using it as a gun platform in blatant violation of the law of war; commissioned officers involved in friendly fire incident; field grade officers with alcohol abuse problems; medical personnel selling drugs out the back of the TMC; suicides.

Rules of Engagement: commissioned officers addicted to alcohol and drunk on duty; officers shown executing enemy POWs; JAG lawyers shown violating military regulations and the UCMJ on a routine basis; Defense Department civilians shown destroying critical evidence and obstructing justice; a US ambassador is shown committing perjury during a federal court hearing; US soldiers shown killing women and children.

I could go on and on. Sometimes I wonder whether anyone of this forum lives in the same world I do...

 

[JAMiAM]

That's really true in here, that's why so strange to me someone could believe so much like Cheetah... I have doubts even in me...

To paraphrase Rumsfeld..."Then there are those who know unknowns, only nobody else knows what they know...you know?"

 

[JAMiAM]

I could go on and on. Sometimes I wonder whether anyone of this forum lives in the same world I do...

LoL. Welcome back into the shark tank, Don.

I'm sure that once you start looking past all the negativity in those movies, you'll find some positives. Weren't there any schools opened up, in any of the movies?

 

[Dr Zaius]

The whole 16 years I was in uniform, I and my fellow soldiers were constantly offended and insulted by the way we were portrayed by the Hollywood elitist establishment. According to Hollywood, every US soldier is either a drug addict, murderer, rapist, thief, pimp, or complete moron incapable of finding employment anywhere else. I don't remember ever seeing a Hollywood movie which made me feel really proud of the American soldiers involved, with the possible exception of We Were Soldiers.

I know how US soldiers conduct themselves in the field, and it is certainly not like the make believe BS that Hollywod conjurs up. There are violations of the UCMJ and soldiers do committ criminal acts. The military is also the one place where you will almost certainly be caught and punished for your crimes.

Never fear, the days of American hereos in Hollywood are long gone. US soldiers will get all the negative press they can handle, and then some. That should make many of you sleep better at night.

 

[Cheetah772]

LoL. Welcome back into the shark tank, Don.

I'm sure that once you start looking past all the negativity in those movies, you'll find some positives. Weren't there any schools opened up, in any of the movies?

Here is the ultimate proof of why I don't watch the movies a lot or even on TV. I only watch war movies, even so, I now tend to watch even less of them, and the others are mostly sci-fi. Unfortunately, I don't like what sci-fi movies are showing...

A lot of people tend to dwell on the negative sides more than on positive sides.

I fully know that in future generations to come, there will be even less connection between the US Army and the general public as there are fewer family members serving bravely in the armed forces. I also fully know that the media will continue to treat the soldiers in not so-great spotlight regardless of how bravely they fight or serve the United States.

I could go on, but I doubt this will make any sense...

I think it's better for all of us if Hollywood movies are banned, and force everybody to read a good book of their own choosing...

The books can show so much more than mere movies could ever hope in a day!

Dan

 

[LaPalice]

The whole 16 years I was in uniform, I and my fellow soldiers were constantly offended and insulted by the way we were portrayed by the Hollywood elitist establishment. According to Hollywood, every US soldier is either a drug addict, murderer, rapist, thief, pimp, or complete moron incapable of finding employment anywhere else. I don't remember ever seeing a Hollywood movie which made me feel really proud of the American soldiers involved, with the possible exception of We Were Soldiers.

I know how US soldiers conduct themselves in the field, and it is certainly not like the make believe BS that Hollywod conjurs up. There are violations of the UCMJ and soldiers do committ criminal acts. The military is also the one place where you will almost certainly be caught and punished for your crimes.

Never fear, the days of American hereos in Hollywood are long gone. US soldiers will get all the negative press they can handle, and then some. That should make many of you sleep better at night.

It is simply because they need drama, that makes a story. If everything goes well, you don’t have any story. It is the same with love story. You don’t find a love story movie where the heroes don’t have any problem. It is not necessary a bunch of leftist who hate the Army .
And Frankly I find Martin Sheen in Apocalypse Now more likeable than John Wayne in Green Berets.

LaPalice.

 

[laszlo.nemedi]

You obviously don't watch many movies do you? Do you watch using subtitles, or in the original English? I have found that many movies really butcher the film when they add subtitles or dub.

...
I could go on and on. Sometimes I wonder whether anyone of this forum lives in the same world I do...

I have 338 dvd discs (with strong interest in war movies) (all offical, not stolen ones ...
I am using English subtitle for deaf to learn English, and sometimes there is no Hungarian subtitle).

We definitely not live in the same world, that's why we see different things in the same thing (that's why I need your feedback to find greater truth, not just mine or my cultural enviroment's... )

As you listed the wrong things, it shows your eyes are "trained" to find the wrong things, here we "trained ourself" to find the exaggeration in the good guys...

---
And what do you think about Soviets in Hollywood WWII movies?

 

[ER_Chaser]

The whole 16 years I was in uniform, I and my fellow soldiers were constantly offended and insulted by the way we were portrayed by the Hollywood elitist establishment. According to Hollywood, every US soldier is either a drug addict, murderer, rapist, thief, pimp, or complete moron incapable of finding employment anywhere else. I don't remember ever seeing a Hollywood movie which made me feel really proud of the American soldiers involved, with the possible exception of We Were Soldiers.

I know how US soldiers conduct themselves in the field, and it is certainly not like the make believe BS that Hollywod conjurs up. There are violations of the UCMJ and soldiers do committ criminal acts. The military is also the one place where you will almost certainly be caught and punished for your crimes.

Never fear, the days of American hereos in Hollywood are long gone. US soldiers will get all the negative press they can handle, and then some. That should make many of you sleep better at night.

Don, I cannot quite agree with you here.

Most of the movies made by holleywood are positive and they DO make people proud of America and her servicemen and women.
Even in the movies you just listed, the negative figures were minor, and the curse was all against the war itself, not against the US military.

And I think those shortcomings installed by holleywood for the soldiers in their movies were not necessarily to "demonize" the negative (and often, positive) figures, instead, they want to make them more "human" --- human that have weakness and make mistakes. I think that is the art.

Even in these days, when the heat was high against the Iraq war, there were very few against the soldiers (once in CA, there was an ugly demonstration about "shooting officer" .. that was the few exception..) --- even when the holleywood liberals gathered for their "hate bush" dinner party, they still honor the soldiers. I believe people know what they are doing and talking about.

 

[Cheetah772]

I have 338 dvd discs (with strong interest in war movies) (all offical, not stolen ones ...
I am using English subtitle for deaf to learn English

....

And what do you think about Soviets in Hollywood WWII movies?

Be careful! I am deaf, and learning English from the subtitles helped me to excel in the written English...

Though I think reading a book does a much better job of educating the reader how to read and write the English language than any kind of movie.

Better blow out the dust on some books and open a page! Better to own 338 books than dvds...

What do I think of the Soviets?

My answer is "Red Dawn" movie!

And, "Iron Eagle," "Rambo" series, "Rocky" where Rocky punches out a Soviet boxer, "Red Socripn" where a famous actor from Rocky movie fight back the Soviets, "I, Spy" where Chevy Chase and David Arkynord attempts to outsmart the Soviets, a lot more...

In short, I think all Soviets are idiots for ever accepting the communism!

No, on a more serious note, really, I haven't seen a lot of Soviets shown in a positive spotlight, and that's truth...

Dan

 

[ER_Chaser]

Dan, I can tell you about Soviet movies though ...

They are at least no better than the Holleywood makes
In fact, in my early ages in China, we only had Soviet movies as foreign movies to watch (as west movies were generally considered "enemy propaganda".. ) ---- well, they are better and more interesting than Chinese movies, still the same kind of "communism always wins no matter how hard .." "people under communist leadership can defeat any enemy" .. .that type, not hard to imagine... mostly boring. But there were a few exciting war movies (and originated on very good novels by famous authors) like "The Quiet Don", "Berlin", "Youth Guards", "Dawn is Quiet here" etc.. (Not sure about the titles, I translate them from Chinese, which was translated from Russian apparently ) ... (although there were always rediculous screens like one soviet soldier fought herotically against a whole company of germans and finally kill them all or something like that ... same kind of screen was seen from holleywood repeatedly as well... I guess that is just art.. )...

In short, Holleywood movies are much more to my taste.

 

[laszlo.nemedi]

Be careful! I am deaf, and learning English from the subtitles helped me to excel in the written English...

Though I think reading a book does a much better job of educating the reader how to read and write the English language than any kind of movie.

Better blow out the dust on some books and open a page! Better to own 338 books than dvds...

...
Dan

I was careful

I have more than 338 books on WWII, too
I use subtitle to check my understanding of the spoken language...

 

[laszlo.nemedi]

Dan, I can tell you about Soviet movies though ...

They are at least no better than the Holleywood makes
In fact, in my early ages in China, we only had Soviet movies as foreign movies to watch (as west movies were generally considered "enemy propaganda".. ) ---- well, they are better and more interesting than Chinese movies, still the same kind of "communism always wins no matter how hard .." "people under communist leadership can defeat any enemy" .. .that type, not hard to imagine... mostly boring. But there were a few exciting war movies (and originated on very good novels by famous authors) like "The Quiet Don", "Berlin", "Youth Guards", "Dawn is Quiet here" etc.. (Not sure about the titles, I translate them from Chinese, which was translated from Russian apparently ) ... (although there were always rediculous screens like one soviet soldier fought herotically against a whole company of germans and finally kill them all or something like that ... same kind of screen was seen from holleywood repeatedly as well... I guess that is just art.. )...

In short, Holleywood movies are much more to my taste.

"The Dawn is quiet here" was really an exciting war story, see the Blitz forum.
It is true where was a lot of propaganda movie much worst sometimes than any Hollywood story (I had to see James Bond, Rocky, etc. many times to compensate them). Now at my age :whlchr: I am really wish for a "true" balanced movie...

 

[jlbetin]

From an european/french point of view Save Private Ryan shows to young generation the courage and abnegation of thousands of young Yankees who died on beach to make us free.
Lot of old soldiers told how real was this film.
Killing POW was true too with French units in WW2 (Not in 1939/40).
During Dragoon operation by instance., a past interior minister Michel Poniatowsky when he was sergeant has empeached his troop men to kill german POW, were those guys bastards ?(The French soldiers ).

To maintain some intesity in film sometime you need to add dirty characters, but the main flow is still limpid.

Concerning We were soldiers, I found this film a very good one, honnest for both sides.


I remember when I was conscript most of my fellows when they leave the barrack run to remove their uniform. Me as you can see on my avatar, I was proud of it as I know that army is the best wall for a democracy, even if I'm a blody red bastard ( Dan).
Don let the coyots yawhl, the caravan maintain its path gently. As soldier your were the Warranty of freedom for all of us

Der WanderAdjudantChefReservist

 

[Dr Zaius]

I have 338 dvd discs (with strong interest in war movies) (all offical, not stolen ones ...
I am using English subtitle for deaf to learn English, and sometimes there is no Hungarian subtitle).

We definitely not live in the same world, that's why we see different things in the same thing (that's why I need your feedback to find greater truth, not just mine or my cultural enviroment's... )

As you listed the wrong things, it shows your eyes are "trained" to find the wrong things, here we "trained ourself" to find the exaggeration in the good guys...

Fair enough.

And what do you think about Soviets in Hollywood WWII movies?

Well, for one thing there aren't nearly enough films about the Eastern Front. That's always been my main area of interest in history and it still is. Many people - besides wargamers and history buffs - know almost nothing about the Eastern Front or WWII in general. Their views tend to be based on innacurate notions, or they simply are not familiar with it at all. US schools are doing a terrible job of teaching history. I don't know if that is true in other countries.

EATG had some fairly significant details wrong, but the basic concept of what happened at Stalingrad was *close* to the truth. Soviet soldiers were used as cannon fodder right up until the closing days of the war. Casualty rates were catastrophic in battle after battle. That wasn't because Soviet soldiers were cowardly, it was because they had inept leadership. German soldiers respected Red Army soldiers for what they were and learned to fear them.

Pound for pound was the Red Army a match for the Wehrmacht? No way. That doesn't mean Soviet soldiers were cowards. The way the USSR used its population went beyond simple abuse into the realm of genocide. The great purges in the '30s were in reality mass murders, plain and simple. Stalin created a state that was based on fear and domination. The average soldier was simply trying to do what he could in a very difficult situation.

Has Hollywood done a good job? Well, they haven't done much at all on this subject. The Germans made one decent movie about it - Stalingrad. But the Russians are rarely seen in this film, and the second half of the movie starts to look a lot like Platoon.

Part of the problem is that Hollywood very rarely makes true war movies anymore. What I define as a "true" war movie is a movie that isn't really about a single soldier or group of soldiers. Instead, it's is about a battle or campaign. A Bridge Too Far is a true war movie. Pearl Harbor isn't. It's really a love movie with WWII as an interesting backdrop. Gettysburg is a true war movie, while I think Kelly's Hereos isn't. There used to be an interest in real war movies that were both interesting, and to a degree, educational. There doesn't seem to be much interest now in war movies except at the small unit level.

I would consider Band of Brothers and Black Hawk Down war movies, they simply covered the action from the tactical perspective rather than a zoomed out view. Directors can't seem to cover large battles or campaigns in today's movies without getting bogged down in trying to make some kind of overall political statement about the war in question. The movie soon ceases to be about the battle and tends to focus on the ethical dilemma.

How many non-Hollywood movies have you seen about the Eastern Front? Are Soviet soldiers depicted with more realism in those films? How are the Germans portrayed? The Brits? Americans?

 

[Kraut]

Never fear, the days of American hereos in Hollywood are long gone. US soldiers will get all the negative press they can handle, and then some. That should make many of you sleep better at night.

Oh my, Don, you have problems

Let's start comparing the number of war movies that make a good picture about the Wehrmacht to the ones portraying all germans as evil sadistic nazi bastards

 

[Dr Zaius]

Oh my, Don, you have problems

Let's start comparing the number of war movies that make a good picture about the Wehrmacht to the ones portraying all germans as evil sadistic nazi bastards

I've already stated I don't think they give US soldiers a fair shake. I never implied they give anyone else a fair shake either. Hollywood may even be guilty of portraying the Nazis in a bad light.

Man, I'll have to sit in a quite place and think about that one for a while! Maybe I need to open another bottle of Chianti...

 

[ER_Chaser]

oh... good point, Don, talking about true war movies, that reminds something that I should credit to Chinese movie industry. In late 80s and early 90s, they made several quite serious work on the wars in China during 1937 to 1949, they were "propaganda" movies to west views, yes, to some extend, they are, but honestly speaking, they are also serious good movies at the same time. One of them is called the "bloody battle of Tai'er Zhuang" (about the first major victory by KMT army against Japanese, during which 20k Japanese troops were destroyed.), a decent movie maded by CCP controlled media to reflect the great deed by its former enemy. Another is a series called "grand strategic duals", covering all 3 desicive campaigns in the Civil War that the bulk of KMT's force was destroyed. Not romance, no personal heroes, no pretty girls and 007 ... so most people think these were boring "propaganda" .. I like them ... If there is any chance you can borrow from a public library, it could be a nice window to see what happened in an unfamiliar land far away both in time and distance to you

 

[Wolfleader]

laszlo.nemedi wrote:

I have 338 dvd discs (with strong interest in war movies) (all offical, not stolen ones

:crosseye:

*Begins making plans to visit Hungary and crash over at Laszlo's place making sure to pack plenty of pizza, beer and a super size bucket of KFC.*