"Enemy at the Gates" - Russian look.....

What do you think about Hollywood movies?

  • I believe in all what they shows

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They correctly reflects the battles on the Western front, but poorly knows the realities of the East

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I pay attention only on special effects

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • Their movies are interesting to see, but they are not reflecting the realities of the War

    Votes: 16 72.7%
  • They don't know anything about WW2!

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Is World War 2 finished?

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • What is Hollywood?

    Votes: 1 4.5%

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .

jlbetin

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amvas said:
Hi, All

I had placed a link to the interesting review on that movie on one of the forums. It caused much discussion there.
Hope, you also will enjoy this. :cool:

http://battlefield.ru/shame/enemy/enemy.html

PS. This page are not linked anywhere on the main site....
Hello,

I'm French, I read with a great interest this url. on 60% I agree with this article. But problem is that on our western side we had had too propaganda.
The political Commissar is the dark side of Stalinism, the men who sent people to Goulag or in front of an Execution Squad. because you are a traitor to motherland Russia.
For me USSR was a dream when I was young ( 10 year in french PC), I remember a russian film about WW2, 'Letjat zhuravli' . A very good film.
For Westerner it is difficult to understand what represent the great patriotic war except if you have interrest in history.

For westener USSR was a big prison with no human right, no consumption goods, corruption, and personality cult.
So soldier are sent to front line under pressure of NKVD, there was no true heroism.
They just forgot Napoleon 1812 (ouchhh it cost us hundrer of thousand deads).

It is true that the USSR was not the socialism paradise (Komunist pasdarai ?), but compared to actual situation are the people happier?
old people have diffculties to gettheir retreat fees, teacher are not well paid same for researchers. There are more and more beggars, sure there are more consumption goods but how many people could buy them ???.

I saw on TV a good french report about Michael Gorbatchov, he was doing good things but he has let USSR exploded, this is his main error ( In my own point of view). I followed the perestroika by reading each week the french edition of the МОСКОВСКИЕ НОВОСТИ, in French "Nouvelles de Moscou" http://www.mn.ru/.
It was a great time an for most of French leftist the hope that a very liberal socialism could be established but that hope vanished in the air.

Tovarich receive my best fraternal thought

Der WanderVladimirIllitchOulianov
 
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laszlo.nemedi

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The view that Soviet people fought against Germans on the pressure by NKVD, is not (or at least not really) true.
When Germany attacked SU Stalin had changed the style and used patriotic feelings (which was much stronger than the communist ideology). So the (elit) fighting forces (e.g. guards) fought a brave patriotic war. In Hungary in 1944 it was clear there is two type of wave of soviet forces. First is the fighting (or very close to them) wave, which was very friendly, normal men who fight against the enemy, so no pressure was visible in their mood.
The second wave was a different story (e.g. my grandfather was almost shot by them, just for fun). But I have some story of my father (he was a kid in that time) in which (by the first wave of forces) he had a chance to see the frontline and all the interesting machines. He said if the Germans would shoot that way he stood, the soviet soldier surely covered my father by his body like a bodyguard. But many story circulated in the country.

It should be told that after Stalingrad in 1943 the soviet forces lost so many men that every fight-able men in the liberated lands was pressured to the army.
 

amvas

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Re:

I agree with Laszlo that you are wrong thinking that soviet people were forced by NKVD. NKVD functions that time was to catch spies and diversants, to stop and gather reatreating troops! :devil:

My grandgrandfather volunteered to the frontline in spite of his age (he was ~49 years old in 1941) and was killed in Vyazma encirclement. He wasn't forced to do this as he was rather a significunt person - the assistant of a head of one Smolensk banks.............
 

JAMiAM

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But, not a total waste of film...there were about 2 seconds where the female love interest bared a nice midriff in the obligatory battlefield sex scene. May have been more, but I closed my eyes at that time to avoid being offended... ;)
 

MonsterZero

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amvas said:
Hi, All

I had placed a link to the interesting review on that movie on one of the forums. It caused much discussion there.
Hope, you also will enjoy this. :cool:

http://battlefield.ru/shame/enemy/enemy.html

PS. This page are not linked anywhere on the main site....
Amvas, the author of the article points out some real problems in the visual appeal of the movie. Personally I think the real issue was a boring, bland script rather than unrealistic actor makeup or bad props.

The review was not written by somebody who looks at the movie with the objectivity and fairness of a real art critic. No, there are way too many immature personal shots taken there against the director and the producers who brought us Enemy at the Gates. There's too much fascination with bullshite and not enough reflection on the things that really matter.

Come on, if the presence of a "T-34-85 model 1944" (not historically accurate for the battle of Stalingrad) is the sticking point of a movie review then you should be writing reviews of plastic model tanks at Finescale Modeler. Movie critiques are not for you.
 

Wolfe Tone

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EATG is not that bad a film. I don't think anyone who wants to make a film that is a commercial success is going to produce a film that really is faithful to what took place at Stalingrad.
They have to make good storyline that will appeal to a mass audience.
The average filmgoer is not going to be that interested in the finer historical details.
My favorite scene in that film was when the boats are shipping the troops across the Volga into the hell that was Stalingrad....then the Stukas swoop down.
 

laszlo.nemedi

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Wolfe Tone said:
EATG is not that bad a film. I don't think anyone who wants to make a film that is a commercial success is going to produce a film that really is faithful to what took place at Stalingrad.
They have to make good storyline that will appeal to a mass audience.
The average filmgoer is not going to be that interested in the finer historical details.
My favorite scene in that film was when the boats are shipping the troops across the Volga into the hell that was Stalingrad....then the Stukas swoop down.
It is really not problem in this film, but the tendency is the problem.
I cannot remember any movie where the soviet soldiers were in positive role, and/or not looked like a coward.
(I cannot remember a film where USA soldiers were in negative role, apart from some criminal who later was punished by good American guys. As I say it is not a problem, but the huge unbalance. You are a wise guy who know much about history, but the average people easily accept the showed stereotype.)
 

Chuck?

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Yeah, there needs to be a story for it to work. Stalingrad was really just about thousands of people killing each other every day. Kind of depressing without a story.
 

Cheetah772

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laszlo.nemedi said:
It is really not problem in this film, but the tendency is the problem.
I cannot remember any movie where the soviet soldiers were in positive role, and/or not looked like a coward.
(I cannot remember a film where USA soldiers were in negative role, apart from some criminal who later was punished by good American guys. As I say it is not a problem, but the huge unbalance. You are a wise guy who know much about history, but the average people easily accept the showed stereotype.)
There are plenty of war movies that put the US troops in the negative spotlight.

For example, "Platoon" is an anti-war movie, "Full Metal Jacket" as well, and then some more. Very few war movies are made in positive light, and all of them are mostly recent made such as "Band of Brothers" and "Saving Private Ryan."

Granted, most of the negative light is mainly on the Vietnam Conflict, but nonetheless the US troops do sometime get a bad rap.

Dan
 

ER_Chaser

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laszlo.nemedi said:
It is really not problem in this film, but the tendency is the problem.
I cannot remember any movie where the soviet soldiers were in positive role, and/or not looked like a coward.
(I cannot remember a film where USA soldiers were in negative role, apart from some criminal who later was punished by good American guys. As I say it is not a problem, but the huge unbalance. You are a wise guy who know much about history, but the average people easily accept the showed stereotype.)
This is actually one interesting thing ---- about "good govt." and "bad govt." ---- it is now in the eastern countries, the former communism countries (including China), people are more skeptical about their govt. in the general scale (of course, the govts there are also doing much worse.) ---- and think twice about what their govt. is telling them.
Same thing about the media and entertainment industry. When you go through a long way of good performance, it is hard to keep your own mind clear and balanced.
 

ER_Chaser

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Cheetah772 said:
There are plenty of war movies that put the US troops in the negative spotlight.

For example, "Platoon" is an anti-war movie, "Full Metal Jacket" as well, and then some more. Very few war movies are made in positive light, and all of them are mostly recent made such as "Band of Brothers" and "Saving Private Ryan."

Granted, most of the negative light is mainly on the Vietnam Conflict, but nonetheless the US troops do sometime get a bad rap.

Dan
Yes, Platoon is a stunning movie. I was very impressed by the professionalism showing there by the Holleywood stars. It takes guts to make and play a movie like that "against" your own nation. And it is a good movie that provokes a lot of thinking as well.
It is not that holleywood sometimes that makes movie not entirely historical, it is after all not their job to be historians. It is the audience that must have a brain to watch and enjoy and learn.
 

Wolfleader

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Heh, I didn't even notice the T-34 85 until it was pointed out in that review. I didn't mind watching Enemy at the Gates, I liked actually. Not least of which was the fact that it had Rachel Weisz in it. :love:

That said I wouldn't mind seeing some Russian films on WW2 and I'll probably start hunting for them soon as my exams finish and I finally have some free time.
 

laszlo.nemedi

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ER_Chaser said:
This is actually one interesting thing ---- about "good govt." and "bad govt." ---- it is now in the eastern countries, the former communism countries (including China), people are more skeptical about their govt. in the general scale (of course, the govts there are also doing much worse.) ---- and think twice about what their govt. is telling them.
Same thing about the media and entertainment industry. When you go through a long way of good performance, it is hard to keep your own mind clear and balanced.
That's really true in here, that's why so strange to me someone could believe so much like Cheetah... I have doubts even in me... :confused:
 

laszlo.nemedi

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Wolfleader said:
Heh, I didn't even notice the T-34 85 until it was pointed out in that review. I didn't mind watching Enemy at the Gates, I liked actually. Not least of which was the fact that it had Rachel Weisz in it. :love:

That said I wouldn't mind seeing some Russian films on WW2 and I'll probably start hunting for them soon as my exams finish and I finally have some free time.
So again the stopped at the girls :rolleyes: hey, it is my job or what... :mad:

Rachel Weisz, yes! Hmmm, I am easily change my idols in girls :confused:
 
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