Encirclement !

[Jacometti]

Hi all,

had a very unusual situation yesterday - a wooden building is occupied by two valiant units of mine, one concealed and one unconcealed.

The opponent fires at it from several sides with the worst shots being 2 FP + 2 vs the unconcealed and 1 FP + 2 vs the concealed. The units firing are not immune to cowering.

This means that against the unconcealed unit the Encirclement criteria are met, while they are not met agains the concealed unit.

We placed an Encircled counter on the hex, but only applied its effects against the unconcealed unit. The concealed unit was not encircled.

Did we play this right?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think they are all Encircled.

A7.7:
"...A qualifying target Location is thereafter marked with an Encirclement counter and every non-berserk, non-heroic enemy/Melee Personnel unit therein suffers an immediate one level drop in morale to both the attack that sealed its Encirclement and any other attacks made against that Location as long as it is so marked...."

Considering that enemy unit that advance in for CC would also be Encircled if it turns into a Melee, I can see the concealed guys becoming Encircled as well. Have you checked for Q&A?

 

[Jacometti]

I think they are all Encircled.

A7.7:
"...A qualifying target Location is thereafter marked with an Encirclement counter and every non-berserk, non-heroic enemy/Melee Personnel unit therein suffers an immediate one level drop in morale to both the attack that sealed its Encirclement and any other attacks made against that Location as long as it is so marked...."

Considering that enemy unit that advance in for CC would also be Encircled if it turns into a Melee, I can see the concealed guys becoming Encircled as well. Have you checked for Q&A?

I did not check for Q&A.

However, the concealed unit did not have its "encirclement sealed" because the 2 FP shots could not possibly cause a NMC.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

However, the concealed unit did not have its "encirclement sealed" because the 2 FP shots could not possibly cause a NMC.

True, but ...
"suffers an immediate one level drop in morale to... ...any other attacks made against that Location as long as it is so marked..."

To me it looks like once an Encirclement counter is placed in a Location all units (non-Hero/Berserk) will be Encircled as well. If the concealed unit was not there when the other unit became Encirled, but later advanced in I it would become Encircled as well:
"...Should other enemy units enter an Encirclement Location they are immediately Encircled...."

So it does not strike me as odd that it would become Encircled when already there either.

 

[Pyth]

I did not check for Q&A.

Klas, as I read the RB text it explicitly affirms what you are saying.

A qualifying target Location is thereafter marked with an Encirclement counter and every non-berserk, non-heroic enemy/Melee Personnel unit therein suffers an immediate one level drop in morale to both the attack that sealed its Encirclement and any other attacks made against that Location as long as it is so marked.

Doesn't that say, pretty clearly, the encirclement is against a location [sealed with valid shots against a valid target is specified earlier] and everyone in the Location is immediately encircled [exc berserks, heroes, non-Personnel] and qualifying personnel that enter (concealed or not) are encirlced? I'll answer my own question... I think it is clear.

 

[Jeff Sewall]

It is the Location that is Encircled, not individual units. The negative effects of an Encircled Location apply to all enemy/melee units that occupy the Location until the Encirclement is removed.

 

[jrv]

It is the Location that is Encircled, not individual units. The negative effects of an Encircled Location apply to all enemy/melee units that occupy the Location until the Encirclement is removed.

It is sort-of the location that is encircled, for there have to be units present to encircle the location. But I agree with the statement that not all units need be affected for the location to be encircled. A similar thing could happen if there were units in and out of LOS. If some units were not entrenched and some were, and the location was behind a wall/hedge (so that the entrenched units were out of LOS), all units in the location would become encircled when the unentrenched ones did. Again when some units are in crest and some are IN a depression (and so out of LOS), the units IN the depression would become encircled when the units in crest were.

JR

 

[Pyth]

It is sort-of the location that is encircled, for there have to be units present to encircle the location....

All you wrote makes sense to me. I think the encircling fire needn't even potentially NMC the same unit.



An mmc in a depression has crest status facing south, a second mmc has crest status facing north... IN the gully and out of all enemy LOS is a 10-3 polishing the brillanten on his Knight's Cross.

Fire could come from North and South such that each crest unit took potential NMC just once. But upon the instant of the second shot everyone, leader included, is encircled.

 

[Jacometti]

It is sort-of the location that is encircled, for there have to be units present to encircle the location. But I agree with the statement that not all units need be affected for the location to be encircled. A similar thing could happen if there were units in and out of LOS. If some units were not entrenched and some were, and the location was behind a wall/hedge (so that the entrenched units were out of LOS), all units in the location would become encircled when the unentrenched ones did. Again when some units are in crest and some are IN a depression (and so out of LOS), the units IN the depression would become encircled when the units in crest were.

JR

by that token a unit out of LOS (inside a gully, say) could be encircled by enemy Area Fire against the (empty) crest position in the same hex?

 

[jrv]

by that token a unit out of LOS (inside a gully, say) could be encircled by enemy Area Fire against the (empty) crest position in the same hex?

I don't think so. Per A7.7 the attacked target has to be non-Aerial Infantry or Vulnerable PRC of an immobile vehicle. You can't encircle an unoccupied location, and you can't encircle if the unit-targets are not in LOS.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

All you wrote makes sense to me. I think the encircling fire needn't even potentially NMC the same unit.

I think it does.

A7.7:
"...To be considered valid fire, ordnance weapons must secure a hit on the target, and other firers must exert enough FP (taking the possibility of Cowering into account) to possibly inflict at least a NMC result on the target...."

The "target" has to be fired on by two (or more, from the correct direction) attacks.

 

[jrv]

I think it does.

A7.7:
"...To be considered valid fire, ordnance weapons must secure a hit on the target, and other firers must exert enough FP (taking the possibility of Cowering into account) to possibly inflict at least a NMC result on the target...."

The "target" has to be fired on by two (or more, from the correct direction) attacks.

I am no so clear on this. With a unit in crest may be possible to get a NMC without the crest DRM but not with it (e.g. one FP with cowering). If two units are in the same hex but in crest in different directions, two different attacks from opposite sides may be able to result in a possible NMC vs. one unit but not the other. Is "the target" a single unit in crest, or is it the combined stack of two units in crest? If the former then the encirclement can't be done; if the latter that it can be done.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...Is "the target" a single unit in crest, or is it the combined stack of two units in crest? If the former then the encirclement can't be done; if the latter that it can be done.

The combined wording of A7.7 leads me to believe/think it is the former.

 

[Pyth]

Is "the target" a single unit in crest, or is it the combined stack of two units in crest? If the former then the encirclement can't be done; if the latter that it can be done. JR

Exactly what I was getting at -- the target is the stack. I think don't think it's clear, either interpretation seems sustainable to me.... (anything that has JRV and Klas on different pages is ipso facto unclear imo)

 

[Eagle4ty]

I don't think so. Per A7.7 the attacked target has to be non-Aerial Infantry or Vulnerable PRC of an immobile vehicle. You can't encircle an unoccupied location, and you can't encircle if the unit-targets are not in LOS.

JR

Not to mention the units in crest status are in a different location (B20.91 Infantry in Crest status are considered entrenched one level higher than the Depression against all Direct Fire attacks..."), or at least as a different location is normally defined [EXC: If fired upon resulting in a hit and meeting the requirements of Encirclement while using the ATT TH process]. In the instance noted by brackets I do believe that the units IN the gully (or otherwise out of LOS in the hex) could become encircled as there is no requirement to be encircled by direct fire only and because if you hit the non-hidden unit hardest to hit you would also hit those units out of LOS (C3.33).

 

[Eagle4ty]

I am no so clear on this. With a unit in crest may be possible to get a NMC without the crest DRM but not with it (e.g. one FP with cowering). If two units are in the same hex but in crest in different directions, two different attacks from opposite sides may be able to result in a possible NMC vs. one unit but not the other. Is "the target" a single unit in crest, or is it the combined stack of two units in crest? If the former then the encirclement can't be done; if the latter that it can be done.

JR

In as much as the target location is marked with an encirclement counter and that both units are in the same location regardless of the crest status facing of each, I think the encirclement would become effective for both units as long as the criteria for encirclement of at least one of the target units is met.

 

[jrv]

Not to mention the units in crest status are in a different location (B20.91 Infantry in Crest status are considered entrenched one level higher than the Depression against all Direct Fire attacks..."), or at least as a different location is normally defined [EXC: If fired upon resulting in a hit and meeting the requirements of Encirclement while using the ATT TH process]. In the instance noted by brackets I do believe that the units IN the gully (or otherwise out of LOS in the hex) could become encircled as there is no requirement to be encircled by direct fire only and because if you hit the non-hidden unit hardest to hit you would also hit those units out of LOS (C3.33).

Units in crest and IN a depression are not in different locations. As with entrenchment, there is only one location with potentially different LOSes. If crest and IN the depression were different locations it would not be possible to encircle the units IN the depression by encircling the units in crest. In contrast it is not possible to encircle units at one level in a building by encircling units at another level because, unlike crest and IN depressions, units at different levels in a building hex are in different locations.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

Units in crest and IN a depression are not in different locations. As with entrenchment, there is only one location with potentially different LOSes. If crest and IN the depression were different locations it would not be possible to encircle the units IN the depression by encircling the units in crest. In contrast it is not possible to encircle units at one level in a building by encircling units at another level because, unlike crest and IN depressions, units at different levels in a building hex are in different locations.

JR

So what you're saying is that units at different levels are not at different locations?

Also, I'm not sure that if using the ATT TH process if all units were hit by say two mortars, even those units in the gully and out of LOS (C3.33 ... [EXC: a mortar also hits all target-hex units that are out of its firer's (Spotter's, if one is being used; 9.3) LOS if that shot hit the non-hidden enemy target that currently was the hardest for it to hit (i.e., that received the highest net TH DRM for that shot)].") would also be encircled as long as they meet the other requirements for encirclement (e.g. attacking unit's FP, location of firers, etc.). This should be especially true if units at different levels are not at different locations (A7.7) "Encirclement occurs if the firer's LOS enters the target Location..." and "A qualifying target Location is (hereafter marked with an Encirclement counter... " . Am I missing the obvious here? What prevents such a situation as long as the units are hit and the firing units have enough FP to inflict at least a NMC on them? As for units at different levels of a building in the same hex, I would think the same principals exist [EXC: if the firing units did not have a LOS to the target's location].

 

[klasmalmstrom]

In the same hex, I think that a unit IN a Depression becomes Encircled if a unit in Crest status does, and vice-versa. I.e., as long a one unit becomes Encircled in a Location, all units do (not sure about upper-level Encirclement).

 

[WuWei]

So what you're saying is that units at different levels are not at different locations?

Different building levels are different location. In and out of a foxhole or with and without crest status aren't.