EN FORCE - FT193 - Scout Car Question

[Joe Moro]

Hi all

Playing as the Russian in this one and i have the Leand-Lease M3A1 Scout Car

We have abandoned the vehicle and crew/passengers removed the. 50Cal HMG and the MMG. So far so good

My opponent (Hi Brian) thinks the FP of the removed HMG is 4FP and the MMG 2 FP. I disagree - as think the FP of the HMG is now 8 and the MMG 4 as per their counter forms

The vehicle notes are not totally clear on this and i can see why Brian would think that..is he right?

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I think you're correct, or will be once you assemble the MGs.

The second † note says "The MA is Removed as a Russian dm .50-cal. HMG, and the other MG is removed as a Russian-colored dm MMG(a).". That's clarified in the third † note, "The AAMG FP actually consists of two MG: one .50-cal. HMG (MA; 4 FP) and one secondary .30-cal. MMG (2 FP))—as signified by “4MA&[red]2” on the counter. The Inherent crew may fire only the .50-cal. MA ...". So when you have the crew/passenger remove the AAMG by D6.631, they get two SW: a dm 8-16 .50-cal HMG and a dm 4-10 MMG(a). D6.631 says the MG must take "the form of a MG counter with the same of less FP", but that's overridden by the higher number rule, Chapter H Russian Vehicle Note 54, which specifies a dm .50-cal HMG and dm MMG(a).

 

[jimfer]

I think you're correct, or will be once you assemble the MGs.

The second † note says "The MA is Removed as a Russian dm .50-cal. HMG, and the other MG is removed as a Russian-colored dm MMG(a).". That's clarified in the third † note, "The AAMG FP actually consists of two MG: one .50-cal. HMG (MA; 4 FP) and one secondary .30-cal. MMG (2 FP))—as signified by “4MA&[red]2” on the counter. The Inherent crew may fire only the .50-cal. MA ...". So when you have the crew/passenger remove the AAMG by D6.631, they get two SW: a dm 8-16 .50-cal HMG and a dm 4-10 MMG(a). D6.631 says the MG must take "the form of a MG counter with the same of less FP", but that's overridden by the higher number rule, Chapter H Russian Vehicle Note 54, which specifies a dm .50-cal HMG and dm MMG(a).

I love that vehicle just for the pucker power of the .50 Cal when its unloaded and reassembled. Too many players under rate the M3A1. Good thread.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

It's not just that vehicle that is a great source of MGs. Always read the vehicle notes. I remember playing SP26 Wollersheim! and realizing if I removed the MGs from the American halftracks, when added to the ones in my OB, I'd have almost as many MGs as squads.

 

[Joe Moro]

It's not just that vehicle that is a great source of MGs. Always read the vehicle notes. I remember playing SP26 Wollersheim! and realizing if I removed the MGs from the American halftracks, when added to the ones in my OB, I'd have almost as many MGs as squads.

Hi Scott..first of all I hope you are having a great festive season and thank you for taking time in answering my query.
My opponent (hi Brian) is not convinced. His reasons are based on the notion that the fp should not increase from the original mounted values. Maybe the notes need to be rewritten to clarify all this. Cheers

 

[Eagle4ty]

Hi Scott..first of all I hope you are having a great festive season and thank you for taking time in answering my query.
My opponent (hi Brian) is not convinced. His reasons are based on the notion that the fp should not increase from the original mounted values. Maybe the notes need to be rewritten to clarify all this. Cheers

If he favors an actual reason (I know, it's a game), the ground mount versions were MUCH more accurate than the vehicle mount versions of the same weapons for a variety of reasons. Though this is a game not reality, it is a system that attempts to at least represent actual implementation of weapon systems within a game format as it pertains to WW-II usage. If he wants to know the reasons they are much more accurate as ground mount versions than vehicle mount versions, there are several threads on this forum that we have gone into some detail as to the reasons for representing them as such. If you cannot locate them or require further enumeration on the subject, I think I could come up with something.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Thank you @Joe Moro, and I hope your summer holidays were festive! I think the text in the introduction stating "whenever a seeming contradiction appears between rule cases, the higher alpha-numeric rule case always takes precedence" handles this case.

If the discussion remains open, there are many other questions that arise as well. What counter does the "dm Russian .50-cal HMG" or the "Russian-colored dm MMG(a) " become when they are assembled? Can they be disassembled again?

Why didn't the authors of the vehicle notes just stay silent? If there was no mention of "dm Russian .50-cal HMG" in the notes, the weapons would be removed as a dm MMG and a LMG, satisfying Brian's concern about increasing the FP. But the authors purposefully said something. It's not just this one vehicle's notes that specifically mention removal as a specific dm weapon, exceptions to D6.631. The German SPW 250/sMG and 251/sMG, and all the US vehicles that reference MAVN I for examples. Did the authors needlessly write all those?

 

[PresterJohn]

Consider the MG34, which can be a 3, 5 or 7 FP weapon depending upon it's mounting, either bipod/tripod (or vehicle), plus the crew component (representing barrel changes and ammo supply).

A Browning 0.50 cal on a tripod will be much more effective at ground targets than an AA pintle mount, even though it is the same mechanism/barrel and ammunition.

 

[Larry]

Hi Scott..first of all I hope you are having a great festive season and thank you for taking time in answering my query.
My opponent (hi Brian) is not convinced. His reasons are based on the notion that the fp should not increase from the original mounted values. Maybe the notes need to be rewritten to clarify all this. Cheers

Brian should square is interpretation of this rule with German note 58. The 7FP mg is removed as an LMG and the 3 FP AAMG is removed as a dm HMG. They change FP because the rules say so.

 

[Faded 8-1]

Right. Seems odd, but definitely intentional. Nothing needs rewritten.

First discovered this playing Chappelle St. Anne from KGPI. Making use of the vehicle notes and having an understanding of what weapons you should strip from your ht when dismounting is a key component to that scenario. Still one of my favorite small scenarios in the game.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Footnote 6 in Chapter D explains a little why he FP of an MG is usually lower than the SW counterpart...

6. 3.5 VEHICULAR MG/IFE FIRE: A vehicular MG is not given Multiple ROF capability unless it is listed as the vehicle’s MA because of the limited vision and multiple duties of its one-man crew. This is especially true of BMG/CMG armament, which is usually secondary armament and cannot even bring fire to bear without special movement of either the vehicle or the turret (which may well be a hindrance to other tasks of the vehicle with a higher priority). Similarly, although the AAMG of many tanks is often the equivalent of a MMG or HMG in terms of equipment, it is still manned by only one man—whose other duties are usually deemed more important (and less dangerous) than the manning of an exposed MG.

 

[Joe Moro]

Thanks guys

Brian saw the error of his way...we are on turn 3 of this scenario and neither the HMG or MMG has fired a shot as yet. Thank you to all for taking the tine to answer my query, and btw HAPPY NEW YEAR !!