Embankment Railroads - inherent terrain?

Philippe D.

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
2,132
Reaction score
1,393
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
My understanding of the EmRR rules is that they are equivalent to Hillocks for LOS purposes, and Hillocks are Inherent terrain. I didn't manage to find an exception in the Railroad rules.

This has strange consequences, such as an EmRR sometimes blocking LOS that does not cross the railroad itself - say, on the Hatten map, between AA13 and BB18.

Is this correct, or am I missing some rule here?
7738
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
74
Country
llAustralia
The Terrain chart doesn't show EmRR as being inherent terrain
 

STAVKA

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
831
Reaction score
553
Location
East Front
Country
llFinland
My understanding of the EmRR rules is that they are equivalent to Hillocks for LOS purposes, and Hillocks are Inherent terrain. I didn't manage to find an exception in the Railroad rules.

This has strange consequences, such as an EmRR sometimes blocking LOS that does not cross the railroad itself - say, on the Hatten map, between AA13 and BB18.

Is this correct, or am I missing some rule here?
That is correct the LOS is blocked, the EmRR is treated as a Hillock hex (Inherent Terrain B6.), the EX: on page F8, Squad C and D cannot see Squad I and J.

The artwork should have been shaded more greyish-white to make it more different from non-EmRR hexes, I have done it myself with a pencil.
 

Andrew Rogers

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
149
Reaction score
420
Location
Canberra, Australia
First name
Andy
Country
llAustralia
Hi

There has been a lot of commentary around the embanked RR in Hatten. This was a difficult feature to reflect on the map from a design perspective but, as the Hatten designer, I am happy with the artwork on the map.

From a historical reading of the battle, the areas around the embanked RR contained a lot of dead ground. This enabled troops to approach defending positions with some ease despite the apparent 'table-top' appearance of the land around the village of Hatten.

In short, while it may appear to be 'odd' that, say, a unit in AA13 (at the RR Station) does not have LOS to a number of nearby hexes, even when the LOS does not touch the RR artwork, this reflects the 'design intent' of Hatten for this part of the battle-space.

Andy Rogers (www.hatten1945.com)
 
Last edited:

STAVKA

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
831
Reaction score
553
Location
East Front
Country
llFinland
Hi

There has been a lot of commentary around the embanked RR in Hatten. This was a difficult feature to reflect on the map from a design perspective but, as the Hatten designe,r I am happy with the artwork on the map.

From a historical reading of the battle, the areas around the embanked RR contained a lot of dead ground. This enabled troops to approach defending positions with some ease despite the apparent 'table-top' appearance of the land around the village of Hatten.

In short, while it may appear to be 'odd' that, say, a unit in AA13 (at the RR Station) does not have LOS to a number of nearby hexes, even when the LOS does not touch the RR artwork, this reflects the 'design intent' of Hatten for this part of the battle-space.

Andy Rogers (www.hatten1945.com)
Think it would have been better to make the hillock RR different, see picture http://forum.aslsweden.com//index.php?showtopic=3624 also think a shorter more comprimised new rule (easy to comprehend) for the Railroad should have been created than the pain to read through the hillock rules with a full page of an EX trying to explain it.
 
Last edited:

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Were you associated with the design of the module?
Did you study the terrain around Hatten?
Right. Whenever I run into a situation where I say to myself, "Hey, that is weird LOS, I should be able to see through/past/into/etc.; I have to remind myself that the game is played on a billiard flat terrain model and that a design for effect may represent dead ground, misc hindrances, blockages or the like (as Andy indicated). Now I may not like it at the moment, but it IS a game and given our "almost" perfect knowledge of the enemy situation and displacements, perhaps good enough is better than a perfect approach (which may not be perfect after all).:unsure:
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,595
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Right. Whenever I run into a situation where I say to myself, "Hey, that is weird LOS, I should be able to see through/past/into/etc.; I have to remind myself that the game is played on a billiard flat terrain model and that a design for effect may represent dead ground, misc hindrances, blockages or the like (as Andy indicated). Now I may not like it at the moment, but it IS a game and given our "almost" perfect knowledge of the enemy situation and displacements, perhaps good enough is better than a perfect approach (which may not be perfect after all).:unsure:
I would add that the EmRR is in the core rules.
HiF is not designing an innovative terrain.
Perhaps some players are not used to that rather infrequent terrain.
 

Andrew Rogers

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
149
Reaction score
420
Location
Canberra, Australia
First name
Andy
Country
llAustralia
Were you associated with the design of the module?
Did you study the terrain around Hatten?
I designed Hatten. Please have a look at my website www.hatten1945.com which hopefully illustrates the amount of effort that went into examining the history of the engagement.

The embanked RR is not a 'perfect' representation of the terrain, but given the structure of the ASL rules, an embanked RR was the best way to represent the impact this terrain feature had on the battlefield.

Andy
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,595
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I designed Hatten. Please have a look at my website www.hatten1945.com which hopefully illustrates the amount of effort that went into examining the history of the engagement.

The embanked RR is not a 'perfect' representation of the terrain, but given the structure of the ASL rules, an embanked RR was the best way to represent the impact this terrain feature had on the battlefield.

Andy
Andrew, you did a wonderful job!
And I really liked to visit the site you created about Hatten.
You explained quite convincingly why you chose the EmRR rule to depict the Hatten railway.
I am fine with that.
I was questioning the poster who contested your choice, because if he wasn't part of the design team, he doesn't have a lot to say about your design choices.
Not speaking of his nearly non existent argumentation (I mean, pointing to a forum in Swedish (?) where about one post briefly evokes the Hatten RR is a virtually non-existent ground to contest your design).
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,595
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
oh ... okay! doh ... a Homer Simpson moment ...

this blogging/forum stuff is not my strong point!

apologies all around!

andy
I am so often subject to Homer Simpson moments that I would say that you don't owe me any apology! ?
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,426
Reaction score
3,365
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I ran into real problems with the embankment the first time I played with it.
After sitting and thinking about it, it became fairly straightforwards. The real problem is the appalling example in the Hillock rules. The vernacular Chapter F version is so much clearer and simpler.
 
Last edited:

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,778
Reaction score
7,201
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
EmRR isn't inherent terrain though?
True, they are not marked as such on the Chaper B Terrain chart, however the rule (B32.12) says:
"EmRR hexes are treated as Hillock (F6.) hexes for LOS, TEM, and COT purposes ..." and Hillock hexes are Inherent Terrain
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
19,778
Reaction score
7,201
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
The real problem is the appalling example in the Hillock rules.
I think the main problem is that the example tries to cover all possible cases in one giant example - but I wouldn't call it "appalling". :)
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
True, they are not marked as such on the Chaper B Terrain chart, however the rule (B32.12) says:
"EmRR hexes are treated as Hillock (F6.) hexes for LOS, TEM, and COT purposes ..." and Hillock hexes are Inherent Terrain
I believe the terrain chart is in error and should be, "—/ ■ Half-Level/ Level-One/ Depression" instead of "—/ Half-Level/ Level-One/ Depression".

JR
 
Top