Elite Companies and Determining Replacements

Robert Fabbro

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Though the procedure in S17.821 is clear on how to determine replacement types for a standard infantry company, I find there is some room for confusion for elite type companies that have MMCs that are not subject to ELR replacement (Paratrooper, Marine, SS, etc.).

Are elite company squads/hs automatically replaced with the appropriate elite-level MMC? This is the easiest and probably intended case. However, the S17.821 table lists a couple of drms for companies that qualify as Elite (-1 if your company is 50%+ elite, -2 if it is identified as elite), so it seems elite companies are subject to a roll on this table after all.

So taking this latter approach, it would seem that a final roll of 0 or less gets you an elite replacement MMC. So what happens if you roll a class not associated with your company? I suspect it is simply not received.

However, a final result of 1-4 on the table results in a First Line MMC being received, with a footnote that reads the unit is the SAME type as listed on the company's OB. So does this mean an elite company actually receives an appropriate unit on a final roll of 4 or less? A significant difference...

I do like the idea of only replacing on a final 0 or less. It would reflect the slower replacement rate for companies that require a higher standard for its personnel. I suppose it ultimately does not really matter, as long as one plays it consistently.

Anyway, I have some ideas for how I will approach this, but was wondering what others had done.

Thoughts?
 
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Eagle4ty

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Though the procedure in S17.821 is clear on how to determine replacement types for a standard infantry company, I find there is some room for confusion for elite type companies that have MMCs that are not subject to ELR replacement (Paratrooper, Marine, SS, etc.).

Are elite company squads/hs automatically replaced with the appropriate elite-level MMC? This is the easiest and probably intended case. However, the S17.821 table lists a couple of drms for companies that qualify as Elite (-1 if your company is 50%+ elite, -2 if it is identified as elite), so it seems elite companies are subject to a roll on this table after all.

So taking this latter approach, it would seem that a final roll of 0 or less gets you an elite replacement MMC. So what happens if you roll a class not associated with your company? I suspect it is simply not received.

However, a final result of 1-4 on the table results in a First Line MMC being received, with a footnote that reads the unit is the SAME type as listed on the company's OB. So does this mean an elite company actually receives an appropriate unit on a final roll of 4 or less? A significant difference...

I do like the idea of only replacing on a final 0 or less. It would reflect the slower replacement rate for companies that require a higher standard for its personnel. I suppose it ultimately does not really matter, as long as one plays it consistently.

Anyway, I have some ideas for how I will approach this, but was wondering what others had done.

Thoughts?
Even Elite formations will receive replacements that are not up to current company standards. As ASL representation cannot show these troops as individuals, these replacements are shown as belonging to the same formation (i.e. Squad) whereas in actual reality may be spread throughout the company. Also, as time progresses the effectiveness of a unit in combat decreases with each loss suffered whether by the actual loss of the personnel or the cumulative effect it has upon the remaining personnel of the company. I see it as the SASL replacement as it's presented works well enough to represent such occurrences.
 

Robert Fabbro

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I've had similar thoughts to yours T.Y. It's still not perfect though. For instance, a German Para company starts with 548s. Through a hard fought campaign, 447s will appear from failed ELR, but these will never return to 548s. Rules as written would have them improving to 467s and then 468s. Though it still has a certain appeal.

The one I am really stuck with is what to do in the case of US marines. They simply don't have troops that aren't elite class. I guess it could be interesting to have a mix of 668, 666, and 546s in a Marine company. Hmmm...

Ultimately, I only have to convince my opponent!
 
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A_T_Great

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Though the procedure in S17.821 is clear on how to determine replacement types for a standard infantry company, I find there is some room for confusion for elite type companies that have MMCs that are not subject to ELR replacement (Paratrooper, Marine, SS, etc.).

Are elite company squads/hs automatically replaced with the appropriate elite-level MMC? This is the easiest and probably intended case. However, the S17.821 table lists a couple of drms for companies that qualify as Elite (-1 if your company is 50%+ elite, -2 if it is identified as elite), so it seems elite companies are subject to a roll on this table after all.

So taking this latter approach, it would seem that a final roll of 0 or less gets you an elite replacement MMC. So what happens if you roll a class not associated with your company? I suspect it is simply not received.

However, a final result of 1-4 on the table results in a First Line MMC being received, with a footnote that reads the unit is the SAME type as listed on the company's OB. So does this mean an elite company actually receives an appropriate unit on a final roll of 4 or less? A significant difference...

I do like the idea of only replacing on a final 0 or less. It would reflect the slower replacement rate for companies that require a higher standard for its personnel. I suppose it ultimately does not really matter, as long as one plays it consistently.

Anyway, I have some ideas for how I will approach this, but was wondering what others had done.

Thoughts?
[/QUOTE/] As the rules read to me, if you roll to receive 1st line or elite, I would replace them with Elite, but if they roll to receive anything else, I would use whatever is rolled for. With all the TPPs out there, that would even work well with SS companies.
 

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I've had similar thoughts to yours T.Y. It's still not perfect though. For instance, a German Para company starts with 548s. Through a hard fought campaign, 447s will appear from failed ELR, but these will never return to 548s. Rules as written would have them improving to 467s and then 468s. Though it still has a certain appeal.

The one I am really stuck with is what to do in the case of US marines. They simply don't have troops that aren't elite class. I guess it could be interesting to have a mix of 668, 666, and 546s in a Marine company. Hmmm...

Ultimately, I only have to convince my opponent!
There are plenty of SSRs out there that have 447s BH to 548s, so to SSR that into an SASL experience seems well within the framework. As to Marines, one really can't have them downgrade in class but you could certainly have them downgrade in effectiveness. I guess it'll be up to you to convince your "opponent" of the feasibility of approaches. ;)
 

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Same to you and everyone else on the forums.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!
 
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This is a very timely post as I’m planning to launch a USMC campaign as soon as I get the counter sheets from Broken Ground for the campaign company units. I hadn’t considered the issue of replacement MMC so it’s very handy your bringing this up.

My concern with only replacing on a ‘0’ result is I suspect you’ll be missing a lot of missions due to the ‘Understrength’ provision. It violates a bunch of chapter G text but I think I’m going to go with a refit phase replacement schedule of:

458 (1st line) – 447 (2nd line) – 336 (Green) with the 447/336 squads from the US early war Army (‘You’re a Marine now, son!”) The 458 squad will also be the elite selection until the higher factor squads come online later in the war (though I'm toying with making the 558 BAR squad the 'elite' type.) 447s and 336s will be HOB upgradeable during games but 458’s can only get upgraded as a result of refit phase company improvement; in-game they’ll become fanatic instead. The 447’s and 336’s will of course count as USMC rather than Army units for all purposes.

I think this will work OK for SASL purposes, and is at least marginally defensible on historical grounds.
 

Robert Fabbro

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This is a very timely post as I’m planning to launch a USMC campaign as soon as I get the counter sheets from Broken Ground for the campaign company units. I hadn’t considered the issue of replacement MMC so it’s very handy your bringing this up.

My concern with only replacing on a ‘0’ result is I suspect you’ll be missing a lot of missions due to the ‘Understrength’ provision. It violates a bunch of chapter G text but I think I’m going to go with a refit phase replacement schedule of:

458 (1st line) – 447 (2nd line) – 336 (Green) with the 447/336 squads from the US early war Army (‘You’re a Marine now, son!”) The 458 squad will also be the elite selection until the higher factor squads come online later in the war (though I'm toying with making the 558 BAR squad the 'elite' type.) 447s and 336s will be HOB upgradeable during games but 458’s can only get upgraded as a result of refit phase company improvement; in-game they’ll become fanatic instead. The 447’s and 336’s will of course count as USMC rather than Army units for all purposes.

I think this will work OK for SASL purposes, and is at least marginally defensible on historical grounds.
I like your solution. It seems that S17.821 was written with standard infantry companies in mind, and so some fudging is required to get it to work with elite companies. Really, any solution is ok as long as it is well thought out and kept consistent; it then becomes a sort of campaign SSR.
 

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There should, IMO, be a 7ML USMC squad. Maybe a 5-5-7. I don't think the USMC need to have green MMC.

Really, the way the USMC is handled in ASL is a hot mess. It broke the system in so many ways.
 

Robert Fabbro

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It seems I have long forgotten that I asked some similar questions on CSW way back in 2004. So with some embarrassment due to my faulty memory, here are those questions as answered by SASL Designer/Developer Stephen Jackson:

Q) 17.82 SQUAD/HS REPLACEMENT and Elite style CG Companies When replacing MMC in a CG company that uses an underlined morale squad type (Marines, SS), are replacements automatically Elite, or should you still roll on the MMC - TYPE REPLACEMENT TABLE, (receiving an Elite replacement on a 0 or less and nothing otherwise since these types of squads do not have 1st, 2nd, C/G type squads inherent to them)?

A) If the company has only one type of squad available, it receives them in the numbers indicated by the Squad Replacement Table.

Q) German Paratrooper Companies When playing a German Paratrooper Company, what happens if I roll a first line MMC replacement? Should I, a) substitute a 2nd line 4-4-7, b) take an elite 5-4-8? c) take a 1st line 4-6-7, or d) receive nothing? Also, when a 4-4-7 inherent to this CG company battle hardens either due to HOB or Squad seasoning, should I receive a regular 4-6-7 or an elite 5-4-8?

A) Good question that I don’t believe we’ve addressed, as we did with 2nd line squads. If a 1st line squad doesn't exist for a certain company (such as FJ), an elite unit is received. In your example, a 4-4-7 would battle harden to a 5-4-8 as per A25.1.

Here is the link: CSW Forum - Solitaire Advanced Squad Leader (SASL by Multi-Man Publishing) (consimworld.com)
 
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