East Front - maps, overlays, scenarios

[King Scott II]

Ah! Thanks. Will omit reference. Good catch. Kindling eh? Well, kindling the corn could happen I suppose... Yea, that would make it pretty difficult for the Germans to push through. Historically, no reference to that happening. May need to add that SSR too.

Regardless of whether or not kindling is allowed in a Corn Field, the possibility of flame/blaze exists...so now you must write the rule for pop corn. (I am guessing something like Jitter Fire as they mistake the popping of the kernels for gun shots and panic...)

Semper Fi!
Scott

 

[Hutch]

Or Acorns dropping from wood hexes?

 

[Tesgora]

So far the discussion seems to have focused on LOS at a human height view (infantry perspective). What about AFVs? I think from the turret of a mid or late war tank, the cornfield would be much less of a hindrance to firing on another tank, but perhaps more difficult to see infantry even nearby, hidden by the corn. This notion of adding nuance to grainfield to account for tall crops is interesting, but brings a number of issues with it. Difficult to strike a balance between realism and rule overburden.
The approach via SSR is probably the best one currently. For example, in the draft scenario 'The Cornfields' by DonWPetros found earlier in this thread, the cornfield hexes are treated as half-level obstacles to same level LOS, which works well to represent the difficulties for the German tankers to see nearby Soviet infantry. The scenario having only tanks on one side does not address, however, my broader point about AFV-to-AFV LOS in tall crops like cornfield.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Or Acorns dropping from wood hexes?

Hot chestnuts! Get your hot chestnuts!

 

[Vic Provost]

Here is the latest version of the scenario that uses this Cornfield rule. (one of 13 scenarios that cover the area outside of Ponyri). I'm trying out a +3 LOS Hindrance.
Feedback...welcomed


View attachment 28365

Hi Don, just me BUT a +3 Hindrance makes a Corn hex more cover than a wooden house and equal to a stone building, does not sound right to me, stay with the +2 is my advice.

 

[Tesgora]

Two pictures of AFV in cornfields. The maturity of the crop makes a big difference. In the first image the US AFV would have no difficulty engaging another AFV at some distance. In the second picture, from the Yugoslav civil war, the low-silhouette of the Soviet tank and the much taller corn stalks makes for more difficult LOS.

 

[Vic Provost]

How would corn above affect firelanes? I still like +2 Hindrance max per hex as no matter what you are growing, it is not equivalent in cover as a stone building. A simple 1 sentence SSR for a +2 Hindrance takes care of it for me and exactly what I will use if we do a situation with tall corn as the grain. My philosophy is don't micro-manage, people won't play it if the SSR seems too much for whatever reason, feedback I have heard a lot over the years with the newsletter. Tall corn deserves double the hindrance and I'll be happy with that for playability. Also, anytime grain is a prominent terrain, always prohibit Kindling in SSR #1, good call.

 

[lt_steiner]

Orchard hex is only +1 hindrance per hex (B14.21).
Light woods is +2 hindrance per hex (B35.2).
Should cornfield hindrance be equivalent to light woods?

 

[DonWPetros]

Hi Don, just me BUT a +3 Hindrance makes a Corn hex more cover than a wooden house and equal to a stone building, does not sound right to me, stay with the +2 is my advice.

Hi Vic, but the +3 Hindrance isn't a +3 TEM. I think you're saying that the effect of the +3 LOS Hindrance on a hex behind a Cornfield would provide more cover (+3) than the Wooden house (+2) - which is correct. But I think these are 2 different things - TEM and a Hindrance - in terms of how firepower is abstractly affected. A Hindrance represents the obscuring of fire, while TEM represents the resistance of fire - no? Both of these abstractions would have a negative effect on firepower - but in different ways.

But I am wrestling with the +2 vs +3 Hindrance though..

 

[chris_olden]

My experience with the cornfields here in NorCal, is that you ain’t seeing sh_t if it’s 40 yards away from you in the corn.(nearing end of season when the corn is at max height.)

 

[DonWPetros]

How would corn above affect firelanes? I still like +2 Hindrance max per hex as no matter what you are growing, it is not equivalent in cover as a stone building. A simple 1 sentence SSR for a +2 Hindrance takes care of it for me and exactly what I will use if we do a situation with tall corn as the grain. My philosophy is don't micro-manage, people won't play it if the SSR seems too much for whatever reason, feedback I have heard a lot over the years with the newsletter. Tall corn deserves double the hindrance and I'll be happy with that for playability. Also, anytime grain is a prominent terrain, always prohibit Kindling in SSR #1, good call.

Firelanes - good question. Perhaps E.1.71 (night rules) - would work? Agreed on your advice regarding micro-managing. KISS seems best. This is the idea behind these scenarios.

 

[DonWPetros]

New Version

 

[DonWPetros]

A 'companion' scenario below - designed to mate with The Cornfields. Haven't tried playing them together yet, but would really like to hear from you if you do.

 

[Gordon]

According to New Vanguard #2 "T-34-85 Medium Tank 1944-1994" during 11 - 12 August 1944 a lone T-34/85 ambushed a platoon of King Tigers from sPzAbt 501 and knocked out 3. The hull was "well camouflaged" by the corn field it was in and the crew had "further camouflaged the turret with corn stalks". Apparently the Germans never spotted the T-34 which eventually ran down and killed the final tank with a shot through the rear armor.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

 

[gorkowskij]

According to New Vanguard #2 "T-34-85 Medium Tank 1944-1994" during 11 - 12 August 1944 a lone T-34/85 ambushed a platoon of King Tigers from sPzAbt 501 and knocked out 3. The hull was "well camouflaged" by the corn field it was in and the crew had "further camouflaged the turret with corn stalks". Apparently the Germans never spotted the T-34 which eventually ran down and killed the final tank with a shot through the rear armor.

That's easily simulated with existing rules/terrain. A T-34 starts HIP in grain. King Tigers roll by and end their move. The T-34 fires to kill two, possibly with bore sighting on the first one. The third King Tiger, now on the other side of two wrecks, possibly with additional grain in the way, is either 1) distracted by something else, or 2) out of LOS thanks to SMOKE and grain, or 3) pivots its ST for the miss. Next turn, the T-34 starts. If it has LOS, the King Tiger fires and misses, thanks to wrecks and grain. The T-34 approaches from outside the Tiger's TCA, comes adjacent, stops, wins a gun duel, and then fires for the kill. If you want to spice it up, add an SSR allowing the T-34 to maintain concealment like an AT gun.

 

[FrankH.]

Hi Vic, but the +3 Hindrance isn't a +3 TEM. I think you're saying that the effect of the +3 LOS Hindrance on a hex behind a Cornfield would provide more cover (+3) than the Wooden house (+2) - which is correct. But I think these are 2 different things - TEM and a Hindrance - in terms of how firepower is abstractly affected. A Hindrance represents the obscuring of fire, while TEM represents the resistance of fire - no? Both of these abstractions would have a negative effect on firepower - but in different ways.

But I am wrestling with the +2 vs +3 Hindrance though..

FWIW, "cover" is the term the US army uses as an equivalent to the ASL terminoligy of a TEM; "concealment" is the term that is equivalent to ASL concept of a Hindrance.

Another thought, more to the issue of the height of the grain: when viewing infantry or vehicles even in tall or late season grain an observer might not be able to clearly see the units but the effect of moving or distorted tops of the grain can give away the position and present a viable target. The argues partially against the idea of increasing the amount of hindrance of a grain that is taller and/or late in the season.

Bamboo (a similar plant but much harder than cornfield, though corn plants can be rather, or more, abrasive to the skin - and therefore more like kunai I guess) terrain is treated as an Obstacle and a +1 TEM. Bamboo requires a minimum move to enter. I would think late-season (September/October) corn would require much more MF/MP to enter, but not to the level of a minimum move. Even early season corn general might require 1/2 to 1 MF more for entry of Infantry, Cavalry and Cycles, and 1/2 MP more for vehicles, than normal grain (and, as I already suggested in an earlier comment, for one month after harvest, meaning even as late as November).

 

[Vic Provost]

So maybe my late season Corn SSR might be:

SSR# - Late Season Corn is in effect, each grain hex is a +2 LOS Hindrance with a +1 TEM and Costs Infantry 2MFs to enter, any vehicle must as add an MP if fully tracked / a half track or 2 MPs if not. It is Bog terrain with a +1 DRM for non-tracked vehicles.

That should take care of it, at least for Dispatches from the Bunker. Interesting subject on how to portray this without distorting the game too much, this is probably what I would go with. Now I just need a scenario to go with it...

 

[semenza]

Cornfields would not slow down a tracked or armored vehicle anymore than other grain. Wheeled non-armored probably 1 MP extra (so 6 MP for "trucks") They should definitely be 2MF for Infantry though.

+3 Hindrance is too much for playability. +2 Hindrance makes sense. Going through two hexes at +4 is going to shut down most shots to a "real world" equivalent of lucky hits. Unless there is a ton of FP to overcome the Hindrance, which also makes sense (just blasting everything in the area on the other side).

TEM? No, corn is not going to help anyone for protection. An Orchard is more likely to grant some protection than corn.

Firelanes should be fine as is. With three hexes preventing them entirely.

Make corn same as Grain, but with a season within the season for the corn add ons.

Something to note when thinking about this ................................. you can't base it on modern cornfields. 1940s (even 1960s) corn is going to be 6' - 8' tall at it's peak. With 36" or more (maybe some less depending on how it is planted) row spacing. And 12" between plants in the row. Modern corn 30" or less row spacing (the fields surrounding my house are 20"), 10' - 12' tall, and 6" -8" between plants. The difference in density is huge!

I, like some others that have posted, have lived surrounded by corn crops my entire life. Played in corn when I was a kid during all seasons. Have corn fields surrounding my yard for the last twenty + years. Other property that I own (where I grew up and regularly walk) is rented from me by a local farmer. And has had corn grown on it since before I was born.


Seth

 

[Hutch]

From the Wiki:
Nikita Khrushchev, earning himself the nickname kukuruznik or “corn fanatic,” embarked on a mass campaign promoting the growth and use of corn in the Soviet Union, beginning in 1955.

After his visit to the US, he went back to USSR and tried to grow fields of corn like the US ones. It was a failure.

By 1960 total acreage had increased to 28 million hectares and reached 37 million by 1962. The latter year, cool and rainy in the spring and early summer throughout European Russia, proved disastrous for corn. Some 70 to 80 per cent of the acreage planted died.