East Front is lacking - design feedback wanted

[Robin Reeve]

Hasn't Kursk been quite largely covered with Crucible of Steel, Prokhorovka, the upcoming Ponyri MMP project, etc. ?
Bagration, with Onslaught on Orsha ?
Not speaking of individual non HASL scenarios ?

 

[von Marwitz]

Simpler to use what valleys or Gullies already are there and just write a SSR allowing or disallowing Crest Status and/or Hull Down Status.

This is what I believe would probably work best in practice - supported by the appropriate geo-board(s) and scenario designs.

von Marwitz

 

[DonWPetros]

Hasn't Kursk been quite largely covered with Crucible of Steel, Prokhorovka, the upcoming Ponyri MMP project, etc. ?
Bagration, with Onslaught on Orsha ?
Not speaking of individual non HASL scenarios ?

No, I don't think Kursk has been overdone - not at all. CoS is excellent as is Prokhorovka (which has the most realistic looking terrain), but unfortunately those weren't 'official' (released by MMP) and consequently they're not very much in general circulation. Few guys own them or can get their hands on them because they're not MMP based. I own them myself and like them a lot (but haven't played them). MMP's 'Slaughter at Ponyri' hasn't come out yet (but will necessarily get into larger circulation). It will have both small-mid sized scenarios and a large CG. (I myself have been designing somewhat large scenarios for this HASL in order to utilize the large mapboard better - but they'll likely not see daylight soon).

I think Kursk remains and will continue to be a 'sweet spot' of ASL battles on the East Front. It has it all - mid-war OB, German vs. Russian, combined arms. In spite of the rap that it's only a 'tank battle'- it wasn't. There were lots of infantry-heavy ground actions, and only because most historians and gamers have focused on the southern SS battles, few other actions have been addressed in ASL terms, especially with tourney sized scenarios that seem to be more played these days. There's a huge amount of material there, unrealized.

 

[Honza]

Just out of interest. Was not Hill 621 supposed to represent a typical engagement during Bagration?

 

[Yuri0352]

East front subjects still underplayed: Kursk, Bagration, Moscow vicin,.

I would add the late war fighting in the Baltic States and Poland to that list.

 

[DonWPetros]

Just out of interest. Was not Hill 621 supposed to represent a typical engagement during Bagration?

I don't know. However, Operation Bagration was ' a military campaign fought between 22 June and 19 August 1944 in Soviet Byelorussia in the Eastern Front of World War II. The Soviet Union destroyed 28 of 34 divisions of Army Group Centre and completely shattered the German front line. It was the biggest defeat in German military history, with around 450,000 German casualties, while 300,000 other German soldiers were cut off in the Courland Pocket.' Operation Bagration - Wikipedia
In other words, Bagration was a pretty large battle that covered hundreds of miles - more of a theater-wide strategic struggle for eastern europe and Poland. I count 15 MMP scenarios during that period on the East Front - significant, but room for others given the scope of the battle.

 

[Honza]

Here is the intro to Hill 621 - Bagration it is.

NEAR MINSK, RUSSIA, 1 July 1944: In late June 1944, the Soviets began what eventually would be known as the “Destruction of Army Group Center”. The key to this offensive was the city of Minsk. Should it be captured, numerous German formations would be hopelessly cut off. One of the vital routes for the German retreat was via Stolbtsky Highway which ran behind a series of low ridges and then crossed the Berezina River south of Minsk. On July 1st, the much overworked and understrength German 170th Infantry Division (in reality a large battalion) was overwhelmed by elements of Rotmistrov’s Fifth Guards Army. The survivors took to their heels and attempted to patch together a defense along the last line of ridges overlooking the escape route to Minsk. The Russians, in probing for a weakness in the German line, had managed to overrun the German-held village of Letornovski and were boiling towards the ridges. Hurriedly gathered German reinforcements were converging in an attempt to patch up the line and hold Hill 621, key to the defense.

 

[Honza]

I agree with Don, that Bagration offers many more opportunities for designs....

 

[TopT]

I always thought that an operational level campaign HASL like Brevity Assault, on the battles around Smolensk 1941 could work. It's a large area, lots of different units, and early-war AFV's.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I always thought that an operational level campaign HASL like Brevity Assault, on the battles around Smolensk 1941 could work. It's a large area, lots of different units, and early-war AFV's.

A Historical Study (like Operation Wachtower or Operation Veritable) could be a good format to cover an operational level situation.

 

[Old Noob]

The problem is convincing MMP to resume the ASL Historical Study line.
TPPs have no problem in producing them.

 

[FrankH.]

The balka discussion is interesting for sure, but my original post was broader - mentioning that the entire ASL approach to the East Front battles is lacking. It's lacking in my view in terms of both geoboards and scenario design. There are relatively few in both main categories compared to the combined other theaters which are tailored to West Front and PTO actions. It would be great to get more going for the East Front (though not Stalingrad where we have a tremendous amount of material) - and that effort would need the support of a larger number in the ASL community to get there.

East front subjects still underplayed: Kursk, Bagration, Moscow vicin,.

Moscow vicinity in 1941 is what you mean.

Also, the many battles around the Don River, and for the attempt to encircle and relieve the 6th Army in Stalingrad more generally.

 

[Andrew Rogers]

To the Eastern Front Fanboys, I would think the (many) Kharkov battles would offer up some tasty morsels. My favorite is the Third Battle (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov).

 

[von Marwitz]

The problem is convincing MMP to resume the ASL Historical Study line.
TPPs have no problem in producing them.

If having the choice of MMP assigning ressources to Historical Studies or to keeping the Core Modules in stock and the "regular" products issued (i.e. Journal, Action Pack, WO Bonus Pack), then I believe the latter should righly have priority over Historical Studies.

No one except MMP can do the Core stuff, but TPPs can do Historical Studies (and in fact some do very well).

von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The problem is convincing MMP to resume the ASL Historical Study line.

If someone has an idea/design on one, I would be surprised if MMP didn't listen....

 

[DonWPetros]

If someone has an idea/design on one, I would be surprised if MMP didn't listen....

Agreed. I'd lend my hand here if anyone has something in mind. But I'd cover them using a couple new as well as some existing geoboards allowing a larger area to be covered. HASL maps are nice, but don't always cover enough territory to justify a HSASL thing.

 

[DonWPetros]

Google Earth - looking at the Kursk battlefield area around Butovo (south salient). Didn't really appreciate how many Balkas there were..

Typical Ukrainian villages - long and strung out. This is Syrtsevo - site of a battle at Kursk. Most of the other villages fought over here - very similar look. Note balka bisecting village - likely a Stream here.

Seems to me - we need a 'balka' geoboard as well as a typical strung out village board.

 

[Old Noob]

"Panzer Battles" by F. W. von Mellenthin describes a German encounter with a balka.

 

[Gordon]

"Panzer Battles" by F. W. von Mellenthin describes a German encounter with a balka.

This one?



Whoops, sorry, that's "Balki."

 

[DonWPetros]

"Panzer Battles" by F. W. von Mellenthin describes a German encounter with a balka.

I think that using a Level -1 terrain type, along with a Gully in some places would be the best we can do.