E1.2 side recorded SMC/SW

[sebosebi]

A leader is setup with a DEFENDER's concealed MMC in a Night scenario, and side recorded and its counter is offboard (E1.2). Does the leader counter must put on-board if
a) the leader directs the MMC fire and the MMC remains not revealed (i.e. the firer is out of the LOS of the target)
b) the leader fire a starshell and always the MMC remains concealed

Regarding a SW, setup with the same concealed MMC in the same way, does its counter must be put on-board if MMC fires it and the MMC remains not revealed (i.e. the firer is out of the LOS of the target)

My answers are NO to all

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I believe such a SMC is revealed as if it sets up hidden:
"The Scenario Defender also has the option to record the Location as if they were HIP of any SMC/SW stacked with a HIP/concealed MMC until initially revealed rather than setting it up onboard."

...and it is also put onboard as per the last sentence of E1.2:
"Such a counter must be placed onboard if it is ever in a different Location than that of the MMC or when the MMC is revealed."

So I think the SMC would be put onboard in both your cases.

E1.921 is clear on firing a Starshell:
"Firing a Starshell (only) has no effect on the firer’s ability to perform other actions, and does not cause a Gunflash or loss of the firer’s concealment [EXC: a hidden or Cloaked unit that fires a Starshell must be placed on board beneath a “?”]. "

 

[sebosebi]

Ok but you teach me that a HIP counter is revealed if it moves and instead look the following Perry Sez....

E1.2. If a Scenario Defender's HIP/concealed
MMC has SMC/SW recorded on a side record
with it, and the unit moves with the recorded
SMC/SW, are the SMC/SW still noted on a side
record? If a Scenario Defender's HIP/concealed
MMC loses concealment, are those recorded
SMC/SW placed on board unconcealed?
A. Yes. Yes.

A12.11 Does the SW possessed by a unit always
share the HIP/Concealed status of the possessor
[EXC: E1.2]?
A. Yes. [Compil3]

look the EXC

E1.2
Provided a MMC retains Concealment during a move...does any recorded (as being stacked with...and now moving with...the
MMC) SMC/SW remain offboard (i.e., need not be revealed) since the recorded SMC/SW is not “in a different Location than that
of the MMC at any point during the move”?
A. Correct. {1}

For sure they arent normal HIP! They are recoeded (only recorded) as if they were HIP but they are treated differently.... so they reveal only for the conditions in the last sentence

 

[sebosebi]

Obviously in all the questions i proposed add "...and in the same Location"

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The reveal when starshell firing is clear IMO. That rule seems specific.

 

[sebosebi]

I wrote to Perry.... anyway another clue that they arent technically hidden units is that there isnt an EXC for E1.2 in A12.32... Ill let you know

 

[klasmalmstrom]

... so they reveal only for the conditions in the last sentence

I don't think.

E.g., a 6-6-6 is set up with a "hidden" 8-0 that has a FT. An attack vs the Location has no effect on the 6-6-6 (i.e., not revealed) but the -1 DRM of FT makes it a PTC vs the 8-0. I can't imagine the intent is that the 8-0wFT isn't revealed in this case.

I wrote to Perry.... anyway another clue that they arent technically hidden units is that there isnt an EXC for E1.2 in A12.32... Ill let you know

Note that the original A12.32 was written before Chapter E - when the 2nd Edition was written I am sure there are lots of "missing" cross-references to Chapter E in Chapters A-D.

 

[sebosebi]

It seems you were right....

A leader is setup with a DEFENDER's concealed MMC in a Night scenario, and side recorded and its counter is offboard (E1.2). Does the leader counter must put on-board if
a) the leader directs the MMC fire and the MMC remains concealed and in the same Location (i.e. the firer is out of the LOS of the target and/or is not in Good Order)?
b) the leader fires a starshell and always the MMC remains concealed and in the same Location?

Regarding a SW, setup always side recorded with the same concealed MMC and its counter is offboard (E1.2), does SW counter must be put on-board if MMC fires it and the MMC remains concealed and in the same Location (i.e. the firer is out of the LOS of the target and/or is not in Good Order)?

Yes to all.

....Perry

MMP

So the only exception remains the movement as for the other Q&A, since i presume that a broken leader should be revealed for sure....

 

[jrv]

i presume that a broken leader should be revealed for sure....

A unit that breaks loses concealment [A12.14].

JR

 

[sebosebi]

A unit that breaks loses concealment [A12.14].

JR

yes, i know, we were talking about the exceptions for E1.2 side recorded SMC/SW..... even for A12.32 "Hidden units may not move ........ or advance and remain hidden" but SMC setup as for E1.2 remains exceptionally hidden if MMC that moves/advances is not revealed/isnt in another Location as for Perry Q&A

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Could you post the Q&A in the Perry Sez folder as well?

 

[sebosebi]

Could you post the Q&A in the Perry Sez folder as well?

Done!