DYO - is it taboo?

[Uncle_Joe]

Hi guys,

I've recently returned to the game and a few of my friends and I are re-learning via the SK method and then gradually adding additional chunks of the full rules as I learn it.

We started out playing some of the SK2 scenarios, but when we progressed to SK3, we were kind of stumped. All the scenarios that looked interesting to us tended to have quite a few vehicles. We just wanted something with a few basic vehicles to get the hang of their capabilities within the rules. Sooo, I busted out the full ASLRB and we threw together a map config, some VCs, a time limit and some point values. Both side picked their forces and we played and had a blast.

Based on that experience, I started looking around here to see what other people's thoughts on the DYO system was and I didnt see anything under discussion. Does that mean its a 'taboo' subject that 'real' ASLers dont tend to play?

If anyone DOES play it, what do you tend to do? Blind pick of forces? Create one side and then bid for the other? Anything else?

Does anyone have any input on whether the points tend to create 'balanced' games? My question springs from the 'allocated' SWs based on year. When we played last night, we rolled 1945, so the German squads were quite pricey (13 for a Line Rifle squad compared to 7 for a Line Russian squad). Despite that, the Germans won handily (the Russians had their gun break on a T34/85 and had other issues, including a German HMG that seemed to never lose RoF...). But that got us to looking at the prices and if that very same battle had taken place in 1943, the Russians would have been in a world more of hurt. Their SWs would have been severely reduced and the German squads would have been considerably cheaper (10 vice 13). Considering the Germans never even got NEAR position with which to use a PF, that +3BPV/squad was essentially 'wasted' points.

So is there any form of balancing mechanism in place that we might have missed? I mean, the Russians in 43 are significantly weaker than the Russian in other years, yet their MMCs still cost the same. I'm sure there are plenty of other 'break points' for each nationality.

Anyways, I'll grant you that ASL doesnt exactly seem like the type of game to just 'each side pick and army and deathmatch it out', but I would have expected it to have a little more in the way of 'safeguards' for balance given how meticulous everything else in the system is.

Anyone have any input on the DYO system? Is it something just better used to pre-prepare a scenario and use it as a rough guide or is it robust enough to handle 'pick and play' style games without much issue?

Thanks!

 

[chris_olden]

Both side picked their forces and we played and had a blast.

then what's the problem?

 

[A/CSM Bird]

Taboo? Au contraire..

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?p=1172515&highlight=Monster+Hill#post1172515

 

[Uncle_Joe]

then what's the problem?

No problem. I guess I was kinda of just expecting to see some discussion of the DYO system here somewhere and came up empty...hence the question.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

Taboo? Au contraire..

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?p=1172515&highlight=Monster+Hill#post1172515

Wow! That will indeed be a Monster Scenario!

Still, DYO seems to be the exception rather than the norm, eh?

 

[Georgii2222]

Wow! That will indeed be a Monster Scenario!

Still, DYO seems to be the exception rather than the norm, eh?

I think with such a wealth of published (official and not) scenarios, the DYO system fell by the wayside, which is why you don't see to much talk about it. It's still a perfectly viable system... I don't think you'll find a whole lot of established players that will play DYO, but they're not going to make fun of you for it, either.

Ital

 

[Jazz]

<shrug>

People who weren't there have no context in which to put anything like an AAR or tactical discussion about a DYO event.... It can be done, but it's a lotta effort.

More and more, people have many demands on their time and would rather spend their sparse free time playing something ready made that is a known quantity with respect to fun factor and/or balance. DYO, while it can be a blast, it can less than ideal also. In short, it's hit or miss on both counts.

As others have mentioned, it ain't like there isn't enough published material with enough variety to satisfy any taste.

 

[Honza]

I tend to work on a semi DYO basis. I like finding prepared scenarios or CG's and working from there.

At the moment I'm playing a modified Red Barricades CG in which I've doubled up the forces.

I've played some of CH's Berlin module, but found it needed a few modifications to play right.

There is also the CH Dzerzhinsky Tractor Works module and map which could be turned into a great CG experience with a bit of research, planning and modification.

A lot of CH stuff just needs the players adjustment to play properly. Ordeal Before Shuri and the DTW module to name two. The trouble is I love the subjects of a lot of CH stuff, but find their treatment of the subject lacking. So I delve a bit deeper and correct their negligence myself - it works for me... but I tend to play solo so it can't bother anyone else, lol.

ASL is fundamentally a WWII SYSTEM which can be adapted and adjusted to suit any needs for WWII combat re-creation. It is a marvelous artefact which deserves thorough development. I'm all for experimenting with it.

I think most players are just that - players. They play with what they are presented. But then there are the designers who like to create and tinker! lol. There are no rules set for how to enjoy or play ASL. It is just that 95% of the players don't dig too deeply and are happy with what they have. The other 5% turn all the conventions on their head and have a ball.... :nofear:

 

[AZslim]

With 4000 scenarios made for the game, there's probably something you can come up with to you liking that's supposedly play tested even. Probably why not much DYO.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Does anyone have any input on whether the points tend to create 'balanced' games?

The point of the DYO system, to my mind, would be to avoid "balanced" games and maximize unpredictability. Which can also be fun, certainly more realistic. If balance is what you want, avoid DYO. If you don't care about "winning" or losing, or balance, I'd say you're equally likely to have fun whether you're playing a preprinted scenario or a DYO, but the latter is more work.

If you don't have a copy of the Schmittgens-Kibler DYO article from The General, to facilitate random scenario creation, I'd recommend it. It was found in Vol. 24 Issue 1 and was a random scenario generator including random VC generation, to use in conjunction with Chapter H. It was supposedly capable of creating a "balanced" scenario, but there were fewer guarantees of that.

Try this auction on ebay.

I've dealt with the seller, and you can buy direct from his website; the scans are clean and hi-resolution pdfs.

 

[Portal]

Joe,

The only ASLers who offer a credible opinion on DYO are those who play it reasonably often, such as A/CSM Bird (who posted in this thread).

ASL isn't about balance. It isn't about perfectly timed scenarios that fit your neighbour's schedule either. It's about fun. And from what I can tell, those who DYO are having a lot of fun.

 

[Portal]

Honza,

I've found the CH Berlin scenarios to be good across the board, and the Ordeal Before Shuri scenarios to be pretty decent for the most part as well (especially OBS 6: Shimida's Fist). I agree there may be fair playtesting allegations against their CGs, but what's wrong with the scenarios?

Feel free to start a new thread to explain. I think you've overgeneralized about entire products when you just ran into a few challenges with the CGs.

 

[Honza]

Honza,

I've found the CH Berlin scenarios to be good across the board, and the Ordeal Before Shuri scenarios to be pretty decent for the most part as well (especially OBS 6: Shimida's Fist). I agree there may be fair playtesting allegations against their CGs, but what's wrong with the scenarios?

Feel free to start a new thread to explain. I think you've overgeneralized about entire products when you just ran into a few challenges with the CGs.

Hi Portal,

You may be right that I am overgeneralising. However there are a few Berlin SSR and a few OBS SSR which need refining.

In Berlin you have the 150mm OBA which is generated by 128mm AA Guns! This OBA also has the ability to produce air-bursts! It has unclear on board RCT Art rules, some of the rules sections are incomplete or need clarifications. IOW it is not as comprehensive as it could be... and I find that CH seem to resent being asked for clarifications and I have even felt I was being labelled as troublesome or bothersome because I wanted greater clarity and answers. So at the end of the day I found it is better to resolve the issues myself!

 

[UncleJoe]

The point of the DYO system, to my mind, would be to avoid "balanced" games and maximize unpredictability. Which can also be fun, certainly more realistic. If balance is what you want, avoid DYO. If you don't care about "winning" or losing, or balance, I'd say you're equally likely to have fun whether you're playing a preprinted scenario or a DYO, but the latter is more work.

If you don't have a copy of the Schmittgens-Kibler DYO article from The General, to facilitate random scenario creation, I'd recommend it. It was found in Vol. 24 Issue 1 and was a random scenario generator including random VC generation, to use in conjunction with Chapter H. It was supposedly capable of creating a "balanced" scenario, but there were fewer guarantees of that.

Try this auction on ebay.

I've dealt with the seller, and you can buy direct from his website; the scans are clean and hi-resolution pdfs.

Awesome, thanks! I think I'll give that a go. That sounds like a pretty good collection to have anyways!

Thanks for the input, all. I guess when I did my initial forum 'search' for DYO, it was only those three letters and apparently the search filter doesnt work with that?

Anyways, its good to see that some people do play DYO. I'm sure we'll do a mx of both DYO and scens, but at this point I dont have a lot of maps so we dont have access to a lot of the scens yet. But as my collection grows (again...) we'll prolly go more and more to the stock scens.

Thanks again!

 

[King Billy]

There are some things you need to be careful with with DYO:

Paratroopers. You should limit the use of paratroopers unless you want to play an air landing scenario. Otherwise you will find a bunch of soldiers behind your defence line.

SS 447s. This little troops are elite by definition so get all sorts of advantages (extra leaders, ammo numbers up etc.) which make them more valuable then their price.

Bill

 

[applecatcher4]

I played a scenario that made you pick your forces using a slightly scaled down version of the DYO rules. For the life of me, I cannot remember what the scenario was but it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed picking out my forces. It was a lot less free than you might imagine.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

I played a scenario that made you pick your forces using a slightly scaled down version of the DYO rules. For the life of me, I cannot remember what the scenario was but it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed picking out my forces. It was a lot less free than you might imagine.

Yeah, that's part of what's drawn us to the DYO system - it doesnt allow total 'cherry picking' when it comes to your force. You'll always end up with a force that has the 'proper' amount of support weapons and leadership.

Speaking of Leadership, does it seem that the DYO OBs tend to be a bit leader-light compared to a comparable sized force from most pre-made scenarios? If so, is there a particular reason for it?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks for the input, all. I guess when I did my initial forum 'search' for DYO, it was only those three letters and apparently the search filter doesnt work with that?

It's a known issue. A partial way around it is to make more use of the "tags" at the bottom of each thread. I've tagged this thread ASL DYO for example. If I can remember which other threads we've discussed DYO in, I'll try and tag them as well - that way in future, when others have similar questions, or just want to navigate through the conversations regarding DYO, they can also make use of the tags rather than trying to use the search function which may or may not be a help to them.

I've tagged four of the largest threads I can find - use this link: http://forums.gamesquad.com/tags.php?tag=asl:+dyo or go to the bottom of this thread and click on the tag.

 

[WaterRabbit]

I would suggest you look at the PBDYO system (it is in the downloads on the site). It makes for a reasonable DYO situation. The numbers work out about the same as a conventional DYO, but because the units are purchased by platoons, it limits some of the total free-for-all effect.

 

[A/CSM Bird]

In a ways good DYO matches set up like scenario design. (We do not use any of the various systems ourselves but we do recommend them as good bases for DYO play). We approach it thusly;

Theatre: East Front, West, Desert, Pacific etc.

Sides: largely determined by theatre.

Battle or Date: You could decide to do a Normandy landing on June 6 '44 or Barbarossa on June 22 '41 or maybe a jungle meeting engagement on Guadalcanal. This will set the availability of your vehicles and guns and possibly the weather. You should read up on the battle or theatre you are fighting in there may be ideas there for specific battles to mimic or you may find a TOE for the unit formations you have in mind.

Points: This will decide your overall scenario size. The more points the more maps you want to have or the counter density gets ridiculous. 250 points per map per side is one rule of thumb but don't be to rigid on this. Our latest DYOs are 3000 per side on 15 maps. One thing to consider as well is; most published scenarios are a 3 to 2 ratio (attacker to defender) if you assign point values like this you run the risk of unbalancing the scenario. The German has some pricey kit and a couple of thousand points only goes so far, the Russian however can buy a **** load of men and equipment for the same amount of points. If you award more points to an attacker than a defender bear in mind the overall scenario you want to create. Is there a historical basis for this? If not keep it even. We sometimes assign by SSR a point pool to be used for a specific purpose like Fortifications or Air Support. This allows each side to build the battlegroup they want. (For instance in a Early '43 East Front DYO match 3153 points will buy you a nifty mechanized KampfGruppe loaded with a 9-2 Battalion Commander with Radio and OBA.:smoke: This is a one time factory special for a low low price before the new Panzers arrive in spring so act now and don't delay there are Russians dig in just over that rise...)

Maps and Overlays: Your historical research will guide you to certain map layouts for your theatre. Pay attention to road nets and hills. Try and keep a balance for each side. Shape your battlefield with overlays to achieve your desired effect.

Scenario, VCs, and SSRs: here you write up your scenario. Try and make it exactly like a AH or MMP scenario card in that you precisely spell out all the parameters just like the real deal. A short intro saying what you are doing , date, etc. Each side is specified (ie elements of Japanese 6th Inf Div) and where they set up and/or enter. This will avoid any ambiguities and disagreements later and also help in the force selection process when you find out that in Oct 42 the Jap 6th Inf Div lost the support of their Ha Go tank company.:freak:.

That's pretty well it. After you do a few of these you get a feel for it and you'll be whippin' them up in no time. The important point is to do it together every step of the way, collaborate, consult, research. That way you will spot the imbalances and biases that will inevitably creep into the design and you can both create the DYO YOU want.