Dummies Seeking Minefields

[Beltmann]

RB III, day 16—My German counterpart continually uses dummy stacks to sniff out all my minefields. It's a source of frustration as they are not cheap, and it allows him to easily bypass a nasty surprise. Now, my understanding of the rule is that when a dummy stack enters a hidden minefield hex, I can ask for proof of a real unit, which basically tells him I have a minefield. It seems like a loophole of sorts in that you can discover mines without using any real units. Anyone else has any thoughts/experiences/feelings on this...?

 

[zgrose]

Fog of War for minefields is pretty weak in ASL but I understand the whole trust issue.

One thing to consider when using minefields is that they are not (only) intended to ambush your enemy but to deny him an avenue of advance. The simplest example would be to have minefields on either side of your HMG's line of fire. Now you present the choice to your opponent, walk into my minefields or walk into my MG's LOS. And the beauty of this is the same "trick" works even if the minefields are known.

Getting a kill on an unsuspecting MMC/AFV is always gravy but you should first consider using your mines like you would wire or roadblocks.

My frustration level with mines in CMBO went way down when I started looking at the big picture.

 

[da priest]

No fortification can defeat an enemy advance, at most it can do some channeling, if properly defended.

Yes your fortification, mines/wire/etc needs protection, or the bugger will just scoot around it. Have a unit with LOS to the Minefield hexes..when he enters, pop the unit's lid(temporarily) and make him reveal a real unit, no real unit, no need to reveal the minefield...:devil:

 

[Jack Dionne]

RB III, day 16—My German counterpart continually uses dummy stacks to sniff out all my minefields. It's a source of frustration as they are not cheap, and it allows him to easily bypass a nasty surprise. Now, my understanding of the rule is that when a dummy stack enters a hidden minefield hex, I can ask for proof of a real unit, which basically tells him I have a minefield. It seems like a loophole of sorts in that you can discover mines without using any real units. Anyone else has any thoughts/experiences/feelings on this...?

I don’t blame you for being pissed. I am now on day 5 and I am the Russian. I find those minefields way too expensive to justify the cost. I decided to spend points fortifying the Commissar’s house. Concentrate on what the games allow you to do. Tactically speaking even with it’s faults ASL is still the best game out there.

 

[Doughboy]

RB III, day 16—My German counterpart continually uses dummy stacks to sniff out all my minefields. It's a source of frustration as they are not cheap, and it allows him to easily bypass a nasty surprise. Now, my understanding of the rule is that when a dummy stack enters a hidden minefield hex, I can ask for proof of a real unit, which basically tells him I have a minefield. It seems like a loophole of sorts in that you can discover mines without using any real units. Anyone else has any thoughts/experiences/feelings on this...?

Do you suppose that this practise is a form of cheating or sleaze within the current rules? Perhaps the use of dummies reflect the efforts of scouts whom we lost from the SL system.
I do sympatize as well, as for the life of me I could not find anything in the rules to stop this behavior unless they are in my line of sight. Shouldn't be this way though.

 

[Legion]

Why not just insist your opponent rolls for EVERY hex he walks though that could be mined; it is a form of sleeze and therefore there s no reason why you cant insist on this!

 

[Reepicheep]

Why not just insist your opponent rolls for EVERY hex he walks though that could be mined; it is a form of sleeze and therefore there s no reason why you cant insist on this!

As of 2nd Edition, D.5 prohibits the use of Fake DR/dr. So I'm afraid your sleeze is no longer allowed.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Note one has the same problem with AT mines : you must test the attack of the minefield when a vehicle enters the hex - if you roll above the minefield value, the mines don't explode... BUT your opponent now knows there are AT mines in the hex.
These are the limits of ASL (less furstrating than old Panzerblitz, where minefields were fully known)...

 

[Chris Milne]

I'm curious - is your opponent doing this deliberately, or is he just using dummies that happen to be wandering through minefields? I'd be quite disturbed by the former, personally, but there's no easy way around the loss of some fog of war for one of you.

 

[Doughboy]

RB III, day 16—My German counterpart continually uses dummy stacks to sniff out all my minefields. It's a source of frustration as they are not cheap, and it allows him to easily bypass a nasty surprise. Now, my understanding of the rule is that when a dummy stack enters a hidden minefield hex, I can ask for proof of a real unit, which basically tells him I have a minefield. It seems like a loophole of sorts in that you can discover mines without using any real units. Anyone else has any thoughts/experiences/feelings on this...?

I suppose that this sleeze can be used to root out you hidden and concealed units as well.

 

[Reepicheep]

At the end of the day though, it only costs you one measly HS or a 6+1 leader placed somewhere (concealed if you wish) within 16 hexes with LOS to the moving units. That's a small price to pay for destroying his dummies when they go looking for minefields. And if you're constantly making him remove dummies by proving LOS from the HS, he'll stop the tactic soon enough.

 

[zgrose]

Yet another use for those fine 6+1 leaders. Peek-a-boo!

And I thought they were almost always worthless.

 

[Legion]

As of 2nd Edition, D.5 prohibits the use of Fake DR/dr. So I'm afraid your sleeze is no longer allowed.

No way, that is bad news!
maybe i will have to cancel my order until AFTER i have successfully defended Stalingrad! :laugh:

 

[Sgt. Przybylo]

Minefields

Typical defensive doctrine calls for obstacles to covered by fire. Minefields (and other obstacles) that are not covered by fire can be removed by the attacker, without any interference from the defender, thus rendering them useless.
This goes back to the points made about the use of obstacles. Use them to channel the attacker into kill zones, and use them to slow an advance. But ALWAYS have something covering them: MGs, AT Guns, AFVs, OBA, etc. This should reveal any dummies out there.

 

[Beltmann]

I do have units with LOS to his dummy stacks. Problem is he assault moves them through all the debris and rubble, so it can't strip concealment. He has a few "Death Star" stacks waiting for any Russian that pops it's head out to challenge them, and I've broken/lost nearly all my smoke capability. OBA use here is also very difficult because of the close proximity to the enemy and poor observer LOS between the factories. He does also use them—as someone pointed out—to search for HIP/Concealed units. I guess the rule is simply meant to factor in advanced scouting.

I should also mention that what started out as a simple flame, has now grown into an enourmous fire disaster over several days that has burned down/ gutted over half of the factories (The fire spread/flame rolling is ridiculous). The wind has been gusty, and there's a huge wall of fire between us, which keeps forcing ME back. It 's giving the Germans easy terrirory, with no casualties. God, I'm prayin' for rain. It's hard enough to fight the Germans—I can't fight Mother Nature too. Regardless, it's still been for me the best ASL/gaming experience...

 

[da priest]

I do have units with LOS to his dummy stacks. Problem is he assault moves them through all the debris and rubble, so it can't strip concealment.

Well no minefields in Rubble, so that shouldn't be a problem. Now you know his proclivities, just put 1 factor minefields all over the Debris hexes(don't have to tell him strength when his Dummies go bye-bye). Soon he'll run out of Dummies.

He has a few "Death Star" stacks waiting for any Russian that pops it's head out to challenge them

Don't understand this, your 6+1 or Conscript Squad just has to temporarily drop "?" and then replaces it. Dummies gone and you're still concealed.

 

[Beltmann]

As long as he keeps his dummies assault moving in the rubble/debris, I can't strip concealment— unless I fire at him. Once I lose concealment, the Death Star fires...

 

[Sgt. Przybylo]

As long as he keeps his dummies assault moving in the rubble/debris, I can't strip concealment— unless I fire at him. Once I lose concealment, the Death Star fires...

I think you are missing the point. He has to reveal that his concealed stack has a "real" unit in it, or you dont reveal the minefield. That's the goal isnt it? To prevent the dummies from their free recon?

Off topic, use sewer movement to get past the fires and into his lines, keeps the German thinking.

 

[alanp]

well, assault moving in non-OG doesn't strip '?'even in LOS of enemy ground unit, but at least he only gets to go forward 2 hexes per turn this way. If you had taken the suggested precautions, the German would merely be using half-squads instead of Dummies, anyway, so mines are not going to hold the Germans back for long. Next time, take da Priest's advice and use fortifications like mines to channel your opponent's troops into your own Death Star Stack's LOS/LOF.