Dummies and Minefields

[JimWhite]

Yeah I poked around looking for a definite answer...which is probably out there somewhere and I just couldn't find it...so I have to ask:

Russian player has a HIP A-P minefield in an orchard...and a German dummy stack assault moves into that hex.

What happens?

 

[jrv]

The concealed/concealed mambo. The Soviet player asks the German player to produce a real unit momentarily. On failure, the German removes the dummies. On success, the Soviet player puts out the mines and attacks the (still concealed, although the attack may strip the concealment) real unit. A12.11.

JR

 

[bendizoid]

Just as interesting, what happens when you move your own dummies into your own minefield ?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Just as interesting, what happens when you move your own dummies into your own minefield ?

IIRC, they would be eliminated.

 

[JimWhite]

The concealed/concealed mambo. The Soviet player asks the German player to produce a real unit momentarily. On failure, the German removes the dummies.

So basically the Russian will not un-HIP the minefield if the German cannot produce a real unit?

What if the German dummies had entered into a location containing a HIP Russian squad? We've always played that the HIPster has to be placed on-board at that time. If we've been wrong then that's 35 years of unlearning we have to do...LOL

 

[Justiciar]

Response to Post 3.

A12.11 ...or if the stack is friendly to the Defender, the Dummy Stack is removed." Ninjad by Klas...

 

[jrv]

So basically the Russian will not un-HIP the minefield if the German cannot produce a real unit?

What if the German dummies had entered into a location containing a HIP Russian squad? We've always played that the HIPster has to be placed on-board at that time. If we've been wrong then that's 35 years of unlearning we have to do...LOL

Correct.

Same thing as with mines. When two concealed (including HIP) units collide, the moving player has to produce a real unit (momentarily). The DEFENDER then either removes his dummies or resolves the collision using A12.15. If the DEFENDER is HIP and the ATTACKER is moving a dummy, the ATTACKER gains information that something is HIP there. Depending on what is allowed to be HIP, that may be a lot of information or just some. If the only thing that can be HIP is the only Gun in the scenario, the ATTACKER knows where it is. If the scenario is a CG date in Red Barricades, the HIP item could be almost anything.

The concealed-concealed mambo is often danced at night, when there are lots of HIP units and fortifications & dummy cloaking counters & real cloaking counters & dummy stacks & real stacks.

BTW don't use the concealed-concealed mambo to bump-scout a concealed (but not HIP) enemy stack by moving a dummy friendly stack into it. It's not pretty for the ATTACKER (who shall remain unnamed, but may be the person writing this post).

JR

 

[bendizoid]

IIRC, they would be eliminated.

So my dummy units can cruise right through my HIP wire, roadblocks, AT ditches etc. without a problem but mines blow them up. Seems slightly inconsistent.

 

[jrv]

Just as interesting, what happens when you move your own dummies into your own minefield ?

The first time, you are suspended from tournament play for a year. The second time, you are banned for life.

JR

 

[bendizoid]

The first time, you are suspended from tournament play for a year. The second time, you are banned for life.

JR

Yeah,I already got suspended for a year when I was moving my Italian dummies through my minefields in ‘Hornet of Cloville’ then Steve Dennis got me squared away.

 

[jrv]

Yeah,I already got suspended for a year when I was moving my Italian dummies through my minefields in ‘Hornet of Cloville’ then Steve Dennis got me squared away.

It's good you got set straight. "Hornet of Cloville" is a German vs. American scenario set in France, 1944. Although I did read about two Italian officers being captured in Brittany.

JR

 

[JimWhite]

Same thing as with mines. When two concealed (including HIP) units collide, the moving player has to produce a real unit (momentarily). The DEFENDER then either removes his dummies or resolves the collision using A12.15. If the DEFENDER is HIP and the ATTACKER is moving a dummy, the ATTACKER gains information that something is HIP there. Depending on what is allowed to be HIP, that may be a lot of information or just some. If the only thing that can be HIP is the only Gun in the scenario, the ATTACKER knows where it is. If the scenario is a CG date in Red Barricades, the HIP item could be almost anything.

Nice explanation...thanks.

FYI...I've never bump-scouted with dummies so at least I got that one right...LOL

 

[bendizoid]

It's good you got set straight. "Hornet of Cloville" is a German vs. American scenario set in France, 1944. Although I did read about two Italian officers being captured in Brittany.

JR

Some kind of Hornet scenario with Brits vs Italian.

 

[jrv]

Some kind of Hornet scenario with Brits vs Italian.

Sting of the Italian Hornet.

JR

 

[Vinnie]

Just as interesting, what happens when you move your own dummies into your own minefield ?

I can confirm they are eliminated. I did it three times in one CG scenario once. I blame the beer.

 

[jrv]

I did it three times in one CG scenario once. I blame the beer.

Boy, that's some bad beer. You might want to check with @olli to see if he can recommend some whisky instead. Maybe he can recommend some good imported stuff.

JR

 

[EagleIV]

The concealed/concealed mambo. The Soviet player asks the German player to produce a real unit momentarily. On failure, the German removes the dummies. On success, the Soviet player puts out the mines and attacks the (still concealed, although the attack may strip the concealment) real unit. A12.11.

JR

One thing to remember if you also have HIP, or other fortifications, You don't have to tell your opponent what they found, only that the dummies are eliminated. And it is possible that what was found wasn't in that hex, but could be seen from that hex such as a Gun HIP is OG.

 

[jrv]

And it is possible that what was found wasn't in that hex, but could be seen from that hex such as a Gun HIP is OG.

I don't think that dummies are eliminated just because they might have LOS to something, only if they try to enter a location with concealed/hip units/items. Entry into hexes with mines is covered in A12.11, while entry into hexes with other units is covered in A12.15. Entry into hexes with other fortifications is covered in E1.16, and that is also used by G.2

As far as situations where a moving concealed stack has LOS to something but is not entering that location, I don't believe there is an "official" rule. There is a q&a:

A12.2 & A12.33 What do you do when a concealed stack that may be a dummy stack moves into LOS of your HIP 5/8" counter/-Fortification?
A. One way to handle this is for the defender, before the stack gets into LOS of anything, to ask if the stack is Good Order yet. Another is for the defender to wait until the stack is in LOS of something before asking this question. [Compil3]

This does not say whether the player with the concealed, moving unit is obligated to state truthfully whether the stack is Good Order (dummies are not Good Order). It could be that it is optional, i.e. the moving player might be able to decline to declare that the stack is good order even though it is. Whether or not the moving player is obligated, there is nothing that says the dummy is removed just for not being good order and so unable to put the sighted item on board. There would have to be some other reason to remove the dummy, e.g. movement in the open or non-assault movement while in LOS of an enemy unit.

Personally I play by saying, "you might be able to see something there. Do you want to claim that is a good order unit?" I let my opponent choose whether to declare the unit good order or not.

JR

 

[Philippe D.]

Personally I play by saying, "you might be able to see something there. Do you want to claim that is a good order unit?" I let my opponent choose whether to declare the unit good order or not.

In some cases (like the case of a Gun HIP in Open Ground - in many cases it will be the only HIP unit in an OB), this is actually giving out a lot of information. Unless you do it systematically, i.e. even if there really is no unit to detect: in practice, when the opponent moves a concealed stack that might conceavably be dummies, they can either claim (possibly prove) that they are a real unit, or they don't "see" anything hidden until they bump into it.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Usually though - in a daytime scenario - it will be defender who has both the hidden Gun and the dummy stacks.