Duds

[Doug Leslie]

7.1 A hit scored on a vehicle while using a LATW TH Table or the Vehicle Target Type is resolved on the applicable To Kill (TK) Table (7.31-.34). There are four different TK Tables; each is consulted only to resolve hits using its particular ammunition type. Each TK Table lists a Basic TK# for each weapon capable of using that type of ammunition.

C7.35 DUD: C7.35 Dud Any Original TK DR of 12 (regardless of ammunition or Target Type) has no effect.

A gun scores a CH using HE against an infantry target and rolls a 12. Does the attack have any effect?

Seems to me that a TK DR is specific to attacks against vehicles but the reference to " target type" suggests that duds might not be so restricted. C7.35 therefore appears to be inherently self contradictory. Is there any kind of official clarification of this?

 

[A_T_Great]

7.1 A hit scored on a vehicle while using a LATW TH Table or the Vehicle Target Type is resolved on the applicable To Kill (TK) Table (7.31-.34). There are four different TK Tables; each is consulted only to resolve hits using its particular ammunition type. Each TK Table lists a Basic TK# for each weapon capable of using that type of ammunition.

C7.35 DUD: C7.35 Dud Any Original TK DR of 12 (regardless of ammunition or Target Type) has no effect.

A gun scores a CH using HE against an infantry target and rolls a 12. Does the attack have any effect?

Seems to me that a TK DR is specific to attacks against vehicles but the reference to " target type" suggests that duds might not be so restricted. C7.35 therefore appears to be inherently self contradictory. Is there any kind of official clarification of this?

I believe the answer is in your question. C7.35 A TK DR of 12 results in a dud. Not an IFT DR but TK. If the target is infantry, there is no dud. There are a few situations where you could be rolling a TK with other target types.
Here is one example from JRV
A dud only occurs on a TK DR [C7.35]. Against infantry it does not alter the result, whatever that might be. Note that (for example) an ATT CH against a stack containing both an AFV and infantry that rolls a CH (just to make it interesting) then rolls a 12 on the effects has a dud against the vehicle but a normal CH vs the infantry if selected or a regular hit if not selected.

 

[bendizoid]

I always thought the dud rule is backward. HE should have a chance for dud not a TK roll, well HEAT could.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I believe the answer is in your question. C7.35 A TK DR of 12 results in a dud. Not an IFT DR but TK. If the target is infantry, there is no dud. There are a few situations where you could be rolling a TK with other target types.
Here is one example from JRV
A dud only occurs on a TK DR [C7.35]. Against infantry it does not alter the result, whatever that might be. Note that (for example) an ATT CH against a stack containing both an AFV and infantry that rolls a CH (just to make it interesting) then rolls a 12 on the effects has a dud against the vehicle but a normal CH vs the infantry if selected or a regular hit if not selected.

That is how I have been playing it. Just thought that the wording of the last part of the rule was a bit odd. I guess that there are situations that mean it makes sense.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Not sure an ATT vs a vehicle - resolved as per C1.55 - is a TK DR, as it is resolved on the IFT. Hm...

 

[Actionjick]

I always thought the dud rule is backward. HE should have a chance for dud not a TK roll, well HEAT could.

It does seem odd. I suppose an AP round could shatter on impact.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

It does seem odd. I suppose an AP round could shatter on impact.

IIRC, there's a footnote on the reason for TK duds.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Not sure an ATT vs a vehicle - resolved as per C1.55 - is a TK DR, as it is resolved on the IFT. Hm...

That's the way I've always seen it played. Using the ATT the attack is resolved on the "*" vehicle line on the IFT and is NOT considered a TK DR. Therefore OBA (Indirect Fire) & ATT can never have a "dud".

• INDEX: TK# (To_Kill_Number): C7.11 [Basic TK#: Number beneath Gun Caliber & Length on applicable To Kill Table] [Modified TK#: Basic TK# plus applicable To Kill Modifications (Cases A-D)] [Final TK#: The Modified TK# minus the AF of the Target_Facing hit] [Wading: T2.3]

However the common usage of a dud round is: A dud is an ammunition round or explosive that fails to fire or detonate, respectively, on time or on command.

 

[grabowbe]

Note that (for example) an ATT CH against a stack containing both an AFV and infantry that rolls a CH (just to make it interesting) then rolls a 12 on the effects has a dud against the vehicle but a normal CH vs the infantry if selected or a regular hit if not selected.

I don't think an ATT effects roll on the IFT (C1.55) is considered a TK DR, so a 12 would not be a dud (C7.35) versus a vehicle.

 

[Doug Leslie]

We seem to be back to square one then! Is there any way to interpret C7.35 so that it makes sense without amendment? When can a TK roll be applicable against anything other than a vehicle? Is it perhaps referring to armoured and unarmoured targets when using the phrase "target type"?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Perhaps it means the To Hit Table (Type) of a LATW....perhaps it was something that was referring to something that was removed later and this part was left in there.

I don't see that it doesn't make sense - there are lots of "extra" words in the rulebook. It's clear that a Dud can happen on a TK DR.

 

[Larry]

A critical dud is a spectacular set of DR to behold.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Not extra words at all. In any rules writing, the technical translation of "regardless of" is as follows: "and in case I forgot some oddball case, the answer is still" no effect!

 

[A_T_Great]

I don't think an ATT effects roll on the IFT (C1.55) is considered a TK DR, so a 12 would not be a dud (C7.35) versus a vehicle.

You are right on that, but I do think an ATT attack on an unarmored vehicle does constitute a TK roll. Regardless, I think the answer to the question is, it needs a TK roll to be a dud.

 

[Vinnie]

If I hit a vehicle with vulnerable PRC with a large calibre HE shell, if I roll a dud, is this still a specific collateral attack versus them?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If I hit a vehicle with vulnerable PRC with a large calibre HE shell, if I roll a dud, is this still a specific collateral attack versus them?

Footnote 4 of the COLLATERAL ATTACK TABLE.

Vehicle Target Type 4
4 Collateral Attack is NA if hit results in Dud (C7.35).

 

[Bill Kohler]

Annual '96, on p. 61, says in a Tips from the Trenches:
An original 12 To Kill DR is a dud "regardless of ammunition or Target Type." But don't get fooled into thinking that your Original 12 IFT DR on the 30 FP column following a hit with 150mm HE is NE, it is still a 1MC! Only a PF Original 12 DR on the IFT results in a "dud". (per C13.36)