Dropping SW While Moving in Bypass . . .

[TheSQLGuru]

Can't find a reference to this in the RB.

Can this be done?

Does the SW wind up in Bypass or in the hex obstacle being Bypassed itself? Does it do so immediately or at the end of the MPh (like a Pinned Unit would)?

Can a subsequent unit move into the hex/Location during that same MPh and attempt Recovery?

Thanks in advance.

 

[zgrose]

I imagine it is left in the Location the unit occupies when dropped. As I understand Locations, inside the obstacle is the same location as bypassing, hence the freeze sleaze, so I don't see why someone couldn't use non-Bypass and pick it up (in fact, they can't pick it up in bypass anyway).

 

[Larry]

A4.43 in relevant part:

An unbroken unit may drop possession of a SW/Gun at no MF cost during its MPh (and thus need not actually move), APh, or at the start of a CCPh (I1.2l) in order to Withdraw from Melee.

A4.431 in relevant part:

When a Personnel unit drops possession (4.43), is eliminated/surrenders, or routs and cannot carry away its SW, its SW/Gun is left unattended in the same Location as per 4.32 or on the same vehicle [EXC: Rider Bailing Out (inclusive of D624, D15.46, D1553)], and must be Recovered to be possessed.

and then back to 4.32, in relevant part:

all portaged equipment are assumed to be in the obstacle during and after Final Fire.

Putting together the 3 rules, the unit can drop possession while in bypass. The SW is assumed to be in the non-obstacle portion of the hex until final fire, when it is assumed to be in the obstacle.

Permitting a unit to "toss" the SW in the obstacle would seem odd under the structure of the rules. Teleporting the SW from the hexside to the obstacle allows for the occupation of the hex by the unit in the obstacle and a concession to playability ... IMO.

 

[Larry]

The full context of A4.32:

If the unit breaks while using Bypass, it remains in the open portion of the obstacle hex until the end of its MPh and is subject to the FFNAM (and usually also FFMO) DRM for multi-hex movement in the open for additional First Fire attacks made against it to or through the hexsides it traversed during that MPh. The broken unit and all portaged equipment are assumed to be in the obstacle during and after Final Fire.

In light of Zoltan's comments, the timing becomes critical. I focused initially on the "during and after Final Fire." However, the unit and its SW are in the non-obstacle portion of the hex unit the end of its MPh. Therefore, the dropped SW should be slid off the hexside and into the obstacle at the completion of the MPh of the dropping unit. A little tension between the sentences but playability would warrant the permissible recovery attempt by a later moving unit.

 

[zgrose]

To me, the more relevant part of the issue is whether a dropped SW is in the same Location as the unit that enters the obstacle later in the same MPh. While there may be some esoteric reasons to wonder if the SW is in or outside the obstacle (surviving some potentially SW destroying event for example), I think for the purposes of Recovery (the OP's question) it is irrelevant. At least that is my take.

 

[Treadhead]

Can a subsequent unit move into the hex/Location during that same MPh and attempt Recovery?

No.

A4.4: "No item can be portaged more than once per phase except at allowed by combined Infanty and vehicle portage within a single phase."

Regards,
Bruce Bakken

 

[zgrose]

That would certainly explain why they never covered Recovery from a SW in Bypass.

Trying to think of a way you can be in Bypass without having moved... eliminated squad bailed out of a vehicle in bypass?

(edit) eliminated, not broken

 

[Ole Boe]

Can a subsequent unit move into the hex/Location during that same MPh and attempt Recovery?

...and Bruce Bakken answered:

No.

A4.4: "No item can be portaged more than once per phase except at allowed by combined Infanty and vehicle portage within a single phase."

The rule quote is correct, but the answer is still a "Yes" - but with one condition:

Yes, a subsequent unit may attempt recovery, but the unit may not expend any MF thereafter while possessing the SW.

The reason is that the quoted sentence limits portage, but not possession of the SW. Portage is to expend MF while possessing the SW (which the first unit did in this example), but if the second unit only recovers it before ending its MPh, then it has not yet portaged it - only possessed it. So this is legal.


BTW, the difference between possession and portage is important for another reason too. Assume a HMG (5pp) in a bulding Location, that an adjacent MMC wants to recover. The MMC expends 2 MF to enter the building, and 1 MF to recover the HMG, leaving it with 1 unspendable MF.

The HMG is now possessed, but not portaged. However, the HMG is considered portaged as soon as the last MF is expended (while possessing the HMG), and its portage cost is then applied, deducting 2 MF from the MMC's total MF. So if the MMC expends it's 4th MF, then it will exceed its current MF by 2 :nuts:

 

[Jim McLeod]

BTW, the difference between possession and portage is important for another reason too. Assume a HMG (5pp) in a bulding Location, that an adjacent MMC wants to recover. The MMC expends 2 MF to enter the building, and 1 MF to recover the HMG, leaving it with 1 unspendable MF.

The HMG is now possessed, but not portaged. However, the HMG is considered portaged as soon as the last MF is expended (while possessing the HMG), and its portage cost is then applied, deducting 2 MF from the MMC's total MF. So if the MMC expends it's 4th MF, then it will exceed its current MF by 2 :nuts:

So, would this result in the MMC becoming CX'd?

2MF moving + 1 MF to Recover the HMG + 2 MF for possessing a 5PP SW = 5 MF spent by that MMC.

If the MMC is by itself, that will make it CX, no?



=Jim=

 

[Ole Boe]

So, would this result in the MMC becoming CX'd?

You mean, just recovering the HMG and then ending its MF? If so, no - it doesn't become CX.

2MF moving + 1 MF to Recover the HMG + 2 MF for possessing a 5PP SW = 5 MF spent by that MMC.

If the MMC is by itself, that will make it CX, no?

Didn't you read what I wrote above Jim?

There is no cost for possessing a 5PP SW. The cost is for portaging the SW, not possessing it, and the HMG is not portaged until the unit expends MF while possessing it.

So the 2 MF reduction is not applied - meaning that the MMC has used only 3 of its 4 available MF.

Expending the last while possessing the HMG (and thereby portaging it) would mean to expend 4 of its (now reduced to) 2 available MF - which is illegal.

 

[Larry]

Gotta love the nuances.

Kevin's question does raise some tactical considerations to avoid stacking, using a unit to go cx to hump a SW up and then drop it. That would give a non-cx unit 2 opportunities at recovery before the HMG would be usable in D1F.