Droping concealment during rout

[esparver73]

I have this situation in Mila 18: a broken Partisan unit in level 1 building of a multi-hex rowhouse. In the same hex, at level 0, concealed enemy units. To the west, Known enemy units in LOS outside the building. To the east, concealed enemy units at level 1 of the same rowhouse (so out of LOS per rowhouse rules).

The enemy can force the different rout options dropping concealment.
Can he drop concealment anytime during the RPh?
At its very beginning?
At the precise moment to force failure to rout?

As Partisans do not surrender via RPh they could rout to the rooftop to avoid being killed if the units below them drop concealment at RPh end. If they not stop the rout there, the units in the next rowhouse hex could drop concealment to force them to rout farther away.

It's a tricky situation and I don't know how it should be handled.
Thanks.

 

[Fred Ingram]

It has been a LONG time since I played that one, but I don't think rooftops were in effect

BUT I could be completely wrong (AND I WAS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) :angry:

 

[James Taylor]

I have this situation in Mila 18: a broken Partisan unit in level 1 building of a multi-hex rowhouse. In the same hex, at level 0, concealed enemy units. To the west, Known enemy units in LOS outside the building. To the east, concealed enemy units at level 1 of the same rowhouse (so out of LOS per rowhouse rules).

The enemy can force the different rout options dropping concealment.
Can he drop concealment anytime during the RPh?
At its very beginning?
At the precise moment to force failure to rout?

As Partisans do not surrender via RPh they could rout to the rooftop to avoid being killed if the units below them drop concealment at RPh end. If they not stop the rout there, the units in the next rowhouse hex could drop concealment to force them to rout farther away.

It's a tricky situation and I don't know how it should be handled.
Thanks.

I don't believe the RB covers the sequencing of this in precise detail. It does tell us that a player may not drop concealment or HIP between the time of the SAN activation and the direction/extent of error DR.

The way I try to play this is to drop ? before my opponent routs at all. However, if I was routing a unit and an opponent said, "hold on... I wanted to drop ? on this guy." I would probably not have any complaints.

But if I had finished the units routs, and starting routing another unit... and THEN my opponent wanted me to 'do over' my routs I would probably claim A.2.

JT

 

[klasmalmstrom]

It has been a LONG time since I played that one, but I don't think rooftops were in effect

They are in play. SSR 4: "Rooftops (B23.8) are in play"

I think one can pretty mush drop concealment when one wants to. But if one does it at the end of a phase (barring DM placement) I don't think it will have much effect.

Here is one Q&A related to the subject:
A10.5
A broken unit ends its rout ADJACENT to a concealed enemy unit with MF still available. If the concealed enemy unit voluntarily drops its concealment before the routing player can move another unit, what happens to the broken enemy unit? Does it have to continue to rout? Or is it eliminated for failure to rout? If it doesn’t have any MF left?
A. It must rout further or Surrender or be eliminated for Failure to Rout. It must rout further if it can. It will Surrender or be eliminated for Failure to Rout.

 

[Fred Ingram]

They are in play. SSR 4: "Rooftops (B23.8) are in play"

Thanks Klause - that why I should never chime in without the facts (at work)

=============

Of course, once on the roof you could probably route to adjacent hexes of the rowhouse (but I am not sure that is covered).

I guess a followup question would be: "do the black bars of a rowhouse apply to roof or cellar locations ?

 

[Justiciar]

Of course, once on the roof you could probably route to adjacent hexes of the rowhouse (but I am not sure that is covered). I guess a followup question would be: "do the black bars of a rowhouse apply to roof or cellar locations ?

B23.8 says "...Rooftops are treated the same as another building floor level at the next higher half-level elevation except as amended below." The 'below' does not contain anything the allows movement across the 'black-bar', that I see... queue Klas...., if otherwise present.

 

[esparver73]

I guess a followup question would be: "do the black bars of a rowhouse apply to roof or cellar locations ?

For roofs it is covered: black bars do not apply, so in Mila 18 Partisans can move spending 2MF instead of 3MF for their special movement in Level 1 rowhouses.

 

[esparver73]

B23.8 says "...Rooftops are treated the same as another building floor level at the next higher half-level elevation except as amended below." The 'below' does not contain anything the allows movement across the 'black-bar', that I see... queue Klas...., if otherwise present.

See B23.71. "The thick black bar blocks all LOS through it at all levels [EXC: Rowhouse rooftop units retain their normal LOS]. [blah blah blah] Infantry in a Rowhouse may move/rout/advance/Withrdraw-from-CC directly into another Rowhouse hex of the same building only at the ground or Rooftop".

 

[Justiciar]

Yes, accept your correction in post 8 to my 6. Seems 23.71 should have been cf in 23.8.

 

[esparver73]

Thanks for your replies!

klasmalmstrom, thanks for the Q&A. What would happen if the concealment of an ADJACENT enemy unit is dropped after a routing unit has finished a legal rout and another unit has started routing? Or at the end of the phase? 10.5 says a broken unit not in Melee may not end a RtPh ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit.

This means that the enemy could wait for the end of the phase (and end of all routs), to drop concealment and force surrender of many broken units. So it seems that surrounding enemy broken units with concealed units is a good way to catch them, as they can be forced to rout to your way!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

klasmalmstrom, thanks for the Q&A. What would happen if the concealment of an ADJACENT enemy unit is dropped after a routing unit has finished a legal rout and another unit has started routing? Or at the end of the phase? 10.5 says a broken unit not in Melee may not end a RtPh ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit.

I think there is a Q&A that says the unit is not eliminated, but I can't find it now.

 

[esparver73]

I think there is a Q&A that says the unit is not eliminated, but I can't find it now.

It would be very interesting to know of that Q&A, whenever you find the time.
Thanks!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

It would be very interesting to know of that Q&A, whenever you find the time.

I can't find it. However, looking at the ASOP it seems clear (IMO) that "a RtPh" in A10.5 refers to the unit's RtPh - i.e. "its RtPh" as opposed to "the RtPh".

ASOP Step 6.21B (which occurs during RtPh):
"...Check for Failure to Rout elimination (A10.5; A20.21)..."

And there is no such statement in ASOP step 6.31B (which occurs at END of RtPh).

 

[esparver73]

That's true! Using the ASOP it is clear that the check is done at the end of every unit's rout.
Thanks!

 

[esparver73]

The 10.533 EX is a good example of a similar situation.

 

[alanp]

so, your opponent could wait to drop '?' after you've used up the brokies MFs in the RtPh to eliminate it. moral: don't end up ADJ to '?' stacks unless you have to (or have another motive for getting the '?' stack to drop '?'.