Does the wall block LOS?

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
Vasl color coding shouldn't be ANY source of rules correctness.

Aren't the colors of the Hedge/wall Extensions of the Hexside?
 

John Fedoriw

Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
406
Reaction score
138
Location
Kitchener, ON
Country
llCanada
Vasl color coding shouldn't be ANY source of rules correctness.
I know and agree that VASL should not be used to determine any rules , rather it should follow them. My point is that with the number of people that use VASL and the fact that it is like this and has not been corrected makes me wonder if this has been overlooked by a large number of people. That in turn makes me wonder if B9.2 was worded the way it was to intentionally prevent this kind of LOS -OR- if it was a poor wording choice (a mistake in the rule book really). That is why I questioned if a poll would be appropriate. I play regularly against 4 opponents and only one of them has quoted this rule in this kind of situation. I would be surprised if the other 3 agree with it.
 

Doug Leslie

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
1,549
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I know and agree that VASL should not be used to determine any rules , rather it should follow them. My point is that with the number of people that use VASL and the fact that it is like this and has not been corrected makes me wonder if this has been overlooked by a large number of people. That in turn makes me wonder if B9.2 was worded the way it was to intentionally prevent this kind of LOS -OR- if it was a poor wording choice (a mistake in the rule book really). That is why I questioned if a poll would be appropriate. I play regularly against 4 opponents and only one of them has quoted this rule in this kind of situation. I would be surprised if the other 3 agree with it.
There is also the issue that there is a PS which appears to support a different interpretation of the rule.
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
The PS says that it is not blocked. The shot from K3 to M0 is clear. Apply the ruling. K1 to L3 is not the question.
That's an example for comparison... its is alluded to that this is the same TYPE of LOS blockage...
The hexside in question ISN'T part of the hex being attacked whereas in the OP question it is.
That should clarify the concept.
 

Neal

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Messages
446
Reaction score
921
Location
WA State, Land of Moss
Country
llUnited States
Hi gents,

Does the wall block LOS from a firer in K3 to a target (not shown)? A tiny bit of hedge can be seen on the right of the LOS line.
View attachment 24081

Per B9.2 LOS: "....A wall/hedge lying lengthwise (on a hex spine) exactly along a LOS is a Half-Level LOS obstacle only if the wall/hedge hex spine is not touching the viewing or target hex, or if touching one of the viewing/target hexes and the vertex opposite of the viewing/target hex has walls/hedges on all of its three hex spines."
It's clear. None of the conditions listed in B9.2 are met. The hex spine is touching the target hex vertex. There's no hedge on L1/L2.

Yes, technically this hexspine doesn't lie "exactly along a LOS" per B9.2 in this case. But if we extrapolate the logic so that it is, is the LOS blocked from K3 to M0 (off the image) just along the hexspine? No, as per B9.2. So if it's clear running down the entire length of a hedge hexspine from K3 per the rules why would it be block just clipping a tiny portion of the same hedge?
 

PresterJohn

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
822
Reaction score
468
Location
The Orient
Country
llAustralia
Referring to the original question and his opponent claiming the "thick terrain depiction" will block the shot could be taken from the starter kit, if that is where he learnt about hedges. The "thick terrain depiction" as well as the hex-side itself represents the hedge and will affect any LOS through it.

I don't think there are any real rules about the terrain depiction in the ASL rulebook. And in fact the wording in the example on page B7 implies the depiction doesn't matter. Otherwise it's a kippered small oily fish.
 
Last edited:

John Fedoriw

Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
406
Reaction score
138
Location
Kitchener, ON
Country
llCanada
It's clear. None of the conditions listed in B9.2 are met. The hex spine is touching the target hex vertex. There's no hedge on L1/L2.

Yes, technically this hexspine doesn't lie "exactly along a LOS" per B9.2 in this case. But if we extrapolate the logic so that it is, is the LOS blocked from K3 to M0 (off the image) just along the hexspine? No, as per B9.2. So if it's clear running down the entire length of a hedge hexspine from K3 per the rules why would it be block just clipping a tiny portion of the same hedge?
I agree with your point about extrapolating the logic on this. It makes NO sense that the LOS should be blocked IMO. My opponent case rests on what the rules state NOT logic.
 

Doug Leslie

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
1,549
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I agree with your point about extrapolating the logic on this. It makes NO sense that the LOS should be blocked IMO. My opponent case rests on what the rules state NOT logic.
Dealing with a difficult opponent brings to mind the allegedly true story of an American tourist visiting Scotland who decided to visit one of the islands in the Hebrides. This entailed a short plane journey in a small aircraft carrying about 20 passengers. After the passengers embarked, the plane remained on the runway with the propellors running for a while before moving off and, somewhat unexpectedly, taxiing into the airfield hangar. The air hostess disappeared into the flight cabin and emerged some time later to make an announcement.

"Ladies and gentlemen. I am sorry to tell you that the pilot has decided that he is not prepared to carry out the flight. He says that the engines are making a funny noise. There will accordingly be a bit of a delay".

"Until what?" asked the American tourist. "Will we have to change planes?"

"No, no", replied the hostess. "We will just be changing pilots!"
 

Neal

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Messages
446
Reaction score
921
Location
WA State, Land of Moss
Country
llUnited States
I agree with your point about extrapolating the logic on this. It makes NO sense that the LOS should be blocked IMO. My opponent case rests on what the rules state NOT logic.
Yeah, I get it. But the rules don't cover every situation. There's a level of common sense that needs to be applied sometimes. 🙂
 

Wayne

Doing Plenty, Kinda Slow
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
1,594
Reaction score
989
Location
Snowiest place in VA
Country
llUnited States
B9.2 currently:
eASLRB said:
B9.2 LOS: Wall and hedge hexsides are Half-Level obstacles to same-level LOS (A6.21) unless the wall/hedge hexside is part of the viewing/target hex. A wall/hedge hexside never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex even in the case of Snap Shots or vs Bypassing units on the opposite side of that hex [EXC: 9.21]. A wall/hedge lying lengthwise (on a hexspine) exactly along a LOS is a Half-Level LOS obstacle only if the wall/hedge hexspine is not touching the viewing or target hex, or if touching one of the viewing/target hexes and the vertex opposite of the viewing/target hex has walls/hedges on all of its three hexspines.
A suggested corrective re-write for B9.2 (or for use as a house-rule):
B9.2 maybe should have said:
B9.2 LOS:
Wall/hedge hexsides are Half-Level obstacles to a same-level LOS (A6.21) except as follows.
A wall/hedge hexside never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex even in the case of Snap Shots or vs Bypassing units on the opposite side of that hex [EXC: 9.21].
A wall/hedge hexside not part of but connected to just one of the viewer/target hexes doesn't block typical LOS to/from that hex nor Atypical LOS (A6.12) to/from the vertex where that wall/hedge connects to that hex
[EXC: an LOS (normal or Atypical) exactly along a wall/hedge hexside connected to just one of the viewer/target hexes is obstructed along that hexside if the opposite vertex of that hexside has walls/hedges on the other two of its hexspines].
It took a few more words than the present rule but the rewrite makes the OP LOS Good.

If that rewrite expresses B9.2 intent, then the RB ought to be changed accordingly.

[What I haven't done (nor will make time to do) is check for unintended effects such a change might make on rules presently referencing B9.2. I'm quick-guessing No Problem, but would need to do the exhaustive check to Be Sure.]

As stated, my suggested rewrite is likely okay for a house rule [and if it ever makes it to The Rules, you're welcome].
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,993
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
The fact that VASL does not highlight this LOS as being blocked makes me wonder how many people actually play it as such. I think this may be an oversight in the rules. I wonder if a poll would be in order to see. How do you set one up?
When you start a thread there is an option to include a poll. It's easy to do. I don't know if you can go back to an already posted thread as the OP and start a poll. Something to try out.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,993
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
When you start a thread there is an option to include a poll. It's easy to do. I don't know if you can go back to an already posted thread as the OP and start a poll. Something to try out.
I wasn't able to do that on one of my threads.
 
Top