Does the IIFT favor the Germans?

Blackcloud6

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OK, MLaPanzer asserted in my Op Fire thread that the IIFT gives an advantage to the Germans. OK, does it? If so, how and why? If not, why not?

If so, should it give such an advantage to the Germans?

Stick to the question. Don't go flame happy and don't turn this into a which is the better fire table thread.

This should be fun....
 

Markdv5208

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I hadn't thought of it.

The US player gets assault fire in A LOT of scenarios. I would think any scenario that is firepower heavy like Stalingrad scenarios? US vs. anyone in 1943, 44, 45? I would think that the IIFT is slightly in their favor.

I still use the IIFT if only b/c it feels more natural. But at tourneys if my opponents says NIXAY, well, I'm polite and I do what they ask.

Just my .02 cents
Good question

Mark DV
Ada, MI
 

L'Emperor

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I do not feel it favors the Germans any more than the US (assault fire) although maybe a tad over the USSR and Brits (since they are using even #s for their squads / MGs). Probably gives the most to those little Minors, but even this is rather trivial.
 

Hubbs5

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I agree with Jim, it does favor units with odd numbered FP but I see this as slight. The real advantage the Germans have is with their PF's. Now that is a true advantage.
 

serpico

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I say no because if both players are using the IIFT, then any advantage the Germans have anyway is still there....it depends on the player's ability to take advantage of any advantages he may have though I would think.

It does mean though that you will generate more firepower chances and possible sniper rolls.....and of course PTCs/CTCs....and possibly generating more DRs.

It also means your firepower will be more affective obviously as ALL firepower "Hits" the target etc. :smoke:
 

Tater

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This an old sad argument and has been disproved repeatedly.

The IIFT doesn't favor any particular nationality of fire power. The fact that anyone is even worried about the firetable is a clear sign that they haven't grokked ASL.
 

Treadhead

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Besides, there are more fundamental game system reasons to not use the IIFT. These have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the net FP used, per se.
 

serpico

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This an old sad argument and has been disproved repeatedly.

The IIFT doesn't favor any particular nationality of fire power. The fact that anyone is even worried about the firetable is a clear sign that they haven't grokked ASL.
No, it is a clear sign that some people just razz others.....I like the IIFT.
 

Blackcloud6

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Tate and Bruce: if you care not to respond to the specific questions in the original post of the thread, please refrain from participating. I asked at the start that everyone stay with the questions, if can you are welcome, if not you are not welcome.
 

ASLSARGE

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It does give a slight advantage to the German paras, American paras, Axis Minors and Chinese Elite. Heck, even the Japanese conscripts benefit to a degree. Only times I've ever used the IIFT is to offer as a play balance involving those units. Otherwise I stick with the standard IFT.
 

Steven Pleva

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The IIFT gets a big boost on the 3.5fp and 11fp columns. I would say that the American 747 paratroopers with and without MMGs get this biggest boost. This becomes doubly so if you are firing at long range, SFF and/or against concealed targets.

The Germans get a slight boost over the Russians and British in most cases. Probably not enough to worry about.
 

2 Bit Bill

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Which scenario?
What kind of OB?
Counter(s) by Counter(s)?

When compared with the same nationality juxtapostions(whatever that means) while using the IFT? I'm not sure if this is implied in your question but I think it is. Additionally, I'm not sure if they benefit more than others from using the IIFT.

A total analysis would be necessary and pert near impossible to figure. Examples of this might include analyzing every scenario involving Germans and the OBs(both sides) and/or individual units of those OBs

Random sampling showing some of the differences is about the best we can do.

Ultimately, the IIFT favors the side/unit who has more same type shots which fall between the columns of the IFT and onto the columns of the IIFT(wasted FP on the IFT).

It also favors different units depending on use

838 vs 628 same type shots (TPB, PB, Normal, LR, concealed)
3 boosts for the the Russians using Prep/DF
24 18 R
16 12
8 6
4 3 R
2 1.5 R
1 .75 there's no .5 column is there?

Assault Fire benefits
3 boosts for the the Germans using Assault Fire
13 10 G
9 7
5 4 G
3 2 G
2 2
 
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Tater

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Tate and Bruce: if you care not to respond to the specific questions in the original post of the thread, please refrain from participating. I asked at the start that everyone stay with the questions, if can you are welcome, if not you are not welcome.
If you post a thread on this forum then I, as a member, can participate and I don't need your permission. You don't like that...to bad.

Let me ask you...with all the number cruncher types we have around the ASL kingdom and as long as the IIFT has been around...why is it no one has ever come up with a solid statistical analysis to back up all these accusations about the IIFT favoring certain nationalities/FP's? I would have thought at least one of these ift fans would have put something together by now. But, they haven't...the reason they haven't is because it's just not there.

BTW, not sure why you focused on Bruce and I...our comments don't differ much from anyone else's. That is, all emotion, no real facts. As usual all thise will come to is..."tastes great, less filling".

BBTW, I thought Bruce was on your ignore list. :D
 

Will Fleming

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My pet rule has always been nations with 3 FP units benefit the most. Striped Japanese, US half-squads or low FP full squads (Italian, partisan, etc) stand to benefit the most. German MG's and their odd FP factors also benefit. Steve is right on the money with the 3.5FP being pretty strong. I will have to check the 11FP which comes up fairly often with two German squads and a LMG they (don't) fire.

Every nationality is stronger with the IIFT, but which one gains the most relative to the others? I tend to think Japanese with all those 347 and 137 counters running around mid/late game. Japanese also seem to be the ones who can really punish you if you fail a morale check or PIN at a bad time. i.e. they can follow through on any gains the IIFT might give them.
 
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'Ol Fezziwig

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Let me ask you...with all the number cruncher types we have around the ASL kingdom and as long as the IIFT has been around...why is it no one has ever come up with a solid statistical analysis to back up all these accusations about the IIFT favoring certain nationalities/FP's? I would have thought at least one of these ift fans would have put something together by now. But, they haven't...the reason they haven't is because it's just not there.
Your syllogism is flawed and self-serving.
 

Steven Pleva

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Let me ask you...with all the number cruncher types we have around the ASL kingdom and as long as the IIFT has been around...why is it no one has ever come up with a solid statistical analysis to back up all these accusations about the IIFT favoring certain nationalities/FP's? I would have thought at least one of these ift fans would have put something together by now. But, they haven't...the reason they haven't is because it's just not there.
Okay, let me settle this once and for all...

One cannot make absolute declarations about a fire table without having a context to talk about it. In philosophical terms, that's called abstraction and that will not work here. One cannot make a sweeping statement about feet unless one knows what animal the foot is attached to. For this discussion, the fire table is the foot and the animal is a scenario in question. (You are the "Big Toe", but that is another matter. If you didn't see the movie, you won't get the joke...)

Anyway, no one will ever come up with a proof about a fire tables effect across the board because it is practically impossible. This cuts both ways as it means that no one will ever prove the IIFT doesn't affect scenarios across the board. Most people will just keep it as an emotional argument.

Therefore, the only way you can practically talk about a fire table's effect is by analyzing it in the context of a scenario (or maybe group of scenarios, but I doubt that'll work). What one needs to do is to record all of the shots taken in a scenario using the IFT and what those same shots would be using the IIFT. One can then analyze the number of extra breaks/pins/concealment stripping/snipers the IIFT would give for each side. Then if one side gets a significant boost in performance relative to the other side, then one may be able to prove that the IIFT affects the balance of that particular scenario.

My intuition, which I'm sure many of you don't care about, is that if you had a lot of 3.5fp shots versus units in +1 terrain or better and/or versus concealed units, then that side would get a significant boost from the IIFT.

Now, even using the above methodology isn't necessarily fair because one might play the scenario differently if one was using the IIFT versus the IFT. For example, two 7-4-7's FG versus a concealed 4-6-7 in a wooden building.

Your IFT choice:
Two 2FP with a 20% chance to pin or break. 25% to strip concealment.
One 6FP with a 23% chance to pin or break. 39% to strip concealment.

Your IIFT choice:
Two 3.5FP with a 33% chance to pin or break. 43% to strip concealment.
One 7FP with a 24% chance to pin or break. 39% to strip concealment.

This example illustrates two points. First, it is better to take one shot using the IFT and two shots using the IIFT. Therefore, the firetable affects how one should play assuming one is rational. Second, if one side is getting many of these choices during a game, it could have a significant affect on balance as your chance of pinning or breaking the 467 went from 23% to 33%. That's a 43% improvement per shot. The chance to strip concealment goes up as well, but that is a smaller effect. If both sides are getting similar benefits, then the effects may wash, but not necessarily so. For example, if an attacker has a 2 to advantage in forces, then may be able to withstand the additional results easier than the defender. Theoretically, a bloodier table could benefit one side over another.

Let me state that I believe most scenarios will not be materially affected by the IIFT. I suspect that there are some scenarios (probably American paratrooper scenarios with MMGs) that may be materially affected. I don't have the motivation to try and prove that as I never have to play with the IIFT so I avoid the "problem" altogether.

I will respond to honest attempts at a rational discussion here. I will not respond to obvious trolling or emotional arguments. I save those calories for my wife... :bite:

Steve
 

Jim McLeod

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The IIFT favours those who use it to their best advantage.

No nationality has a monopoly on that.
 
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