Does the current sniper implementation actually improve the game?

Will Fleming

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I guess we are stuck with it, but I wonder if designers might consider just going with a zero SAN in the future.

Everyone has their opinion, but to me:

1) SAN slows things down
2) SAN makes scenarios dicy-er (for little benefit I think)
3) It really doesn't seem the way snipers would influence the battlefield (while admitting never being on one)
4) In some cases it makes sense to put a half-squad in the open or low TEM areas. Hardly good tactics.
 

MajorDomo

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I like the 1-8-8 sniper used in the Rees scenarios from Dispatches.

It requires that leaders stay with squad(s) and eliminates the HS in zero TEM sleaze. It also stops leaders CXing to cause FTRs, acting as scouts to search or uncover guns....

After a few scenarios, I learned to manage my leaders to survive and felt that they were used much more realistically.

Rich
 

Brian W

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There is so much wrong with ASL that remains unexplained by the designers, and yet sniper modeling is not one of those things. There is one of the most detailed footnotes in the entire ASLRB explaining the reasoning behind snipers in the game.

20. 14.01 SNIPERS: Snipers are a breed apart from the average soldier. Stealth and patience are every bit as important as marksmanship. They work alone, often in no man's land or even behind enemy lines, and are subject to only one order: survival. A sniper strikes only when he feels assured he can do so without being detected, and may pass up endless attack opportunities waiting for a better target. As such, snipers must be free of emotion and oblivious to all events not directly related to their own survival and the pursuit of a clean kill. Consequently, sniper activity is no more likely at the front of an advance than in the rear. A sniper does not attack the first target he sees; indeed, he may wait for hours with enemy activity all around him before selecting a "safe" target, and therefore sniper activity occurred "behind the lines" quite frequently. Some players will doubtless object to this depiction of snipers because they cannot control their attacks, but in real life no battlefield commander could control a sniper's attacks. Such attacks are indeed random, and to present them in a format where a player can dictate when they will occur would be extremely ahistorical. Each player should watch for and announce SAN DRs made by either player. A side benefit of the rule in its present form is that it acts as a sort of balancing mechanism; the player getting the majority of the good DR is also likely to be subject to more Sniper attacks as a consequence. Furthermore, it discourages the old "pot shot" mentality wherein players rolled the dice for every conceivable 1 FP attack because they had nothing to lose. Now they do. Another benefit is that solitaire play is much enhanced by random depiction of snipers because the player never knows "where" they are and therefore cannot be subconsciously taking unrealistic countermeasures. Lastly, some may complain that leaders are not targets in multi-target Locations often enough. They cite the fact that snipers were trained to select leaders as their targets. I only point out that a leader in a hex with a squad representing ten men has a 1000% greater chance of being the sniper's target than any one of the men represented by that squad. Sniper Checks are not allowed following ineffective sniper attacks merely to speed up play; the lethality of a Sniper Check has been correspondingly increased to abstractly reflect other such attempts following ineffective sniper attacks
 

Spencer Armstrong

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This sentence is the most abject bull in the entire rulebook:

A side benefit of the rule in its present form is that it acts as a sort of balancing mechanism; the player getting the majority of the good DR is also likely to be subject to more Sniper attacks as a consequence.

Suggesting that the sniper helps balance things is laughable, at best.

IMO, it’s one of ASL’s worst features, harming balance more than it helps.
 

Spencer Armstrong

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I can live with A14 but i would kindly ask designers of small scenarios to cap the SAN to 3. Thank you :)
You misspelled ‘2.’

I more or less wont play any scenario with SAN 5 or higher. But I love Night.

If that bothers anyone, please see Mr Wilde down in hobgoblins. ;)
 

wrongway149

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I guess we are stuck with it, but I wonder if designers might consider just going with a zero SAN in the future.

Everyone has their opinion, but to me:

1) SAN slows things down
2) SAN makes scenarios dicy-er (for little benefit I think)
3) It really doesn't seem the way snipers would influence the battlefield (while admitting never being on one)
4) In some cases it makes sense to put a half-squad in the open or low TEM areas. Hardly good tactics.
1) By reducing the amount of low-odds rolls, SAN actually SPEEDS the game up.
2) Extra randomness keeps the game fluid and interesting. (I still enjoy The Guards Counterattack for this reason) Realism: Players already have too much control over the game.
3) Its a rather generic concept that represents much more than just a lonely soldier with a rifle
4) A good tactical reason to keep dummy stacks in play longer.

Additionally, the game-altering effects have been mitigated by scenario designers over time. I don't think I'm the only one that leans towards adding the extra leader if in doubt.

One of my favorite unique rules in all of ASL.
 

witchbottles

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This sentence is the most abject bull in the entire rulebook:

A side benefit of the rule in its present form is that it acts as a sort of balancing mechanism; the player getting the majority of the good DR is also likely to be subject to more Sniper attacks as a consequence.

Suggesting that the sniper helps balance things is laughable, at best.

IMO, it’s one of ASL’s worst features, harming balance more than it helps.
The near total lack of control over a SAN event is one of the most realistic simulations in the game itself. The fact that it is linked by activation to lower DR's is one of the most lamentable rules in the game - as Spence says - a sniper is not there to "even the odds" on any battlefield.

Snipers are carefully trained and selected small units. They are given two primary missions- scouting for enemy strong points, and causing confusion and unreadiness in areas the enemy forces consider to be "safe areas". They do not target any one individual or type over another, and will let dozens of rather decent shots go, in order to get and achieve the well-aimed and secure to their own position, "perfect" shot, that demoralizes the enemy enough to allow them to reposition safely.

Their primary mission is their use of the4 telescopic sight, but it is to observe and report, not to take "kill" shots. Worse, ASL triggers those kill shots when the battlefield becomes the most active, a point where snipers will vacate the battlefield entirely- activity is anathema to the concept of "draw no attention to yourself" , that is ingrained in every sniper's training.

That said, the SAN is not representative of a sniper in a combat action. It's the near-total randomness of effect, especially as forces meet and engage like occurs in ASL, is far more representative of the myriad of stray things that fly around on a battlefield that can kill, main, or demoralize, damn near anyone. The "golden-BB" that hits the squad leader falling ( in case you are not aware of gravity- if you stand behind a wall and the enemy fires hundreds of rounds near vertical to a point just over your wall, you are going to learn that falling bullets are as deadly as flying bullets) - or the wildly ricocheting piece of shrapnel that severs the tank commanders forehead off , because he was not buttoned up - or the buzzing and ringing of a heavy concussive effect when that 82mm HE mortar round explodes just beside your pillbox and the roar and ringing is enough to discombobulate you for several minutes - or the odd loose nail or screw in the road that gives the mpty and retreating truck the flat tire, immobilizing it - or the zinging bullet that comes in one side of a half-track, rattles around inside a bit, until it finally stops by hitting some unlucky passenger in the leg, or the driver in the shoulder, - etc ad nauseum.

the SAN does an excellent job of portraying how totally random the line of a bullet in a hot combat situation is - and it goes off far more often as the action heats up, and more DRs are made, period.

The mistake, in my view, of the rule, was wording it a "Sniper" in the first place. It should have been called "Random Events of Battle" and then we would call it a RAN ( random activation number) - and it would be just as logical as it fits - RAN = random. Easy to remember, and far more factual. It remains, if considered a RAN not a SAN, one of the best simulative rules in the ASLRB- IMO.

YMMV

Jon H
 

Vinnie

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What Jon says cannot be repeated enough.
Interestingly, many many reports of sniper activity from British troops were later found to be simply the enemy shooting at them with rifles rather than the squad support weapons. The British troops were so used to experiencing incoming MG fire and were good at creating outgoing musketry volume that when single shots came in this direction it was often thought to be sniper fire when there were no "snipers" arrayed against them ,merely troops who were less organised.
 

wrongway149

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The near total lack of control over a SAN event is one of the most realistic simulations in the game itself. The fact that it is linked by activation to lower DR's is one of the most lamentable rules in the game - as Spence says - a sniper is not there to "even the odds" on any battlefield.

That said, the SAN is not representative of a sniper in a combat action. It's the near-total randomness of effect, especially as forces meet and engage like occurs in ASL, is far more representative of the myriad of stray things that fly around on a battlefield that can kill, main, or demoralize, damn near anyone. The "golden-BB" that hits the squad leader falling ( in case you are not aware of gravity- if you stand behind a wall and the enemy fires hundreds of rounds near vertical to a point just over your wall, you are going to learn that falling bullets are as deadly as flying bullets) - or the wildly ricocheting piece of shrapnel that severs the tank commanders forehead off , because he was not buttoned up - or the buzzing and ringing of a heavy concussive effect when that 82mm HE mortar round explodes just beside your pillbox and the roar and ringing is enough to discombobulate you for several minutes - or the odd loose nail or screw in the road that gives the mpty and retreating truck the flat tire, immobilizing it - or the zinging bullet that comes in one side of a half-track, rattles around inside a bit, until it finally stops by hitting some unlucky passenger in the leg, or the driver in the shoulder, - etc ad nauseum.
I've read plenty of accounts of 'friendly fire' incidents-even in the middle of a firefight. There is no way to represent this with deliberate player action, so a SAN/ RAN suffices well.
 
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Tuomo

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Whenever my opponent rolls lower than my SAN, I wish the SAN would be a "less than or equal to" thing as opposed to "equal to".

Yes, you'd get less granularity than you do now, since a SAN "<= 3" is basically a current-usage SAN of "=4" (ie, there's 3 DRs that would activate it) while a SAN of "<=4" steps all the way up to a current-usage SAN of "=7" since there's 6 DRs that would activate it. So you'd basically have three levels:
SAN = 2: hardly any sniper activity
SAN <=3: low-level activity
SAN <=4: pretty active

But would it be worth it in terms of game balance, if that's really one of the major benefits of Snipers? Shrug. I bet it would make the game feel more random than it does now, and not in a good way. Still, an interesting option for an SSR sometime.
 

wrongway149

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Whenever my opponent rolls lower than my SAN, I wish the SAN would be a "less than or equal to" thing as opposed to "equal to".

Yes, you'd get less granularity than you do now, since a SAN "<= 3" is basically a current-usage SAN of "=4" (ie, there's 3 DRs that would activate it) while a SAN of "<=4" steps all the way up to a current-usage SAN of "=7" since there's 6 DRs that would activate it. So you'd basically have three levels:
SAN = 2: hardly any sniper activity
SAN <=3: low-level activity
SAN <=4: pretty active

But would it be worth it in terms of game balance, if that's really one of the major benefits of Snipers? Shrug. I bet it would make the game feel more random than it does now, and not in a good way. Still, an interesting option for an SSR sometime.
I have considered it.
 

jrv

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Whenever my opponent rolls lower than my SAN, I wish the SAN would be a "less than or equal to" thing as opposed to "equal to".

Yes, you'd get less granularity than you do now, since a SAN "<= 3" is basically a current-usage SAN of "=4" (ie, there's 3 DRs that would activate it) while a SAN of "<=4" steps all the way up to a current-usage SAN of "=7" since there's 6 DRs that would activate it. So you'd basically have three levels:
SAN = 2: hardly any sniper activity
SAN <=3: low-level activity
SAN <=4: pretty active

But would it be worth it in terms of game balance, if that's really one of the major benefits of Snipers? Shrug. I bet it would make the game feel more random than it does now, and not in a good way. Still, an interesting option for an SSR sometime.
You'd have to define what it means when the SAN is reduced, but I assume you'd just drop the "<" number. Note that the effect of reduction in level is a lot more pronounced in this style. Dropping from four to three reduces the expected number of SAN attacks by half and from three to two by two-thirds (as opposed to 1/36 with the traditional SAN).

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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Along with the hated SMC "Scout" counter, the SMC Sniper is rightfully one of the rules that has been relegated to the dustbin of miserably failed SL rules that thankfully never made it to ASL except as a house rule or an very rare SSR. The current Sniper rules, though a bit weird in feel and not nearly effective enough in representing the wide variety of conditions it is supposed to represent, is far better than the absolutely horrendous total control offered by the SMC approach.:nod:
 

Robin Reeve

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I presume that past thirty years of SAN being used in scenarios will have made it second nature for most players.
The only effort needed is to be wary about low DR.
Otherwise it works easily.
And removing some of the quasi absolute control of the players on the elements of the game is to be welcomed.
SAN was a real improvement over the older 1-8-8 SMC.
If you miss the latter, give an ATR or LMG to a Hero.
 

Cult.44

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I've always felt the SAN should really be the SHN "Shit Happens Number".
Agreed. I've been tinkering with a scenario where the situation has some sporadic mortar/artillery fire coming from both sides. Rather than simulate it with OBA, I'm giving each side high SANs (probably 4 and 4, maybe 5 and 5).
 
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