Does anyone know the actual level of the Hall 4 in Red October, I think it is 1 and a half levels high. ?

[stuh42asl]

I have checked on line sites regarding the actual height, it seems about 1 1/2, I do know it is very wide.

 

[bprobst]

What do you mean by an "actual height of 1.5"? The height of ASL obstacles is measured in abstracto-units, e.g., one tree = 1 small building roof, except when it doesn't.

Also, since the height of obstacles in ASL are defined by rules and map artwork, generally you don't need to guess what their height is.

 

[The Purist]

If the Hall is considered a factory see B23.74.

If the Factory has a printed stairwell the building height is a 2 1/2 level obstacle. If no printed stairwell exists it is a 1 1/2 level obstacle. No upper levels except Rooftops (B23.8).

Check your CG rules for any other "[EXC:...]"

As to its 'real world' height? Meh. Other than an interesting piece of trivia it shouldn't matter.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I have checked on line sites regarding the actual height, it seems about 1 1/2, I do know it is very wide.

Your question seems a bit unclear. ASL heights are abstractions and don't correspond to actual elevations above sea level or anything. Just how pieces of terrain in a certain area interact with one another.

 

[Sparafucil3]

What do you mean by an "actual height of 1.5"? The height of ASL obstacles is measured in abstracto-units, e.g., one tree = 1 small building roof, except when it doesn't.

And one "local" tree at that. I imagine the trees out on the steppes were pretty stunted. -- jim

 

[Michael Dorosh]

As to its 'real world' height? Meh. Other than an interesting piece of trivia it shouldn't matter.

We don't know why he is asking. When Jason Mark's book on the Barrikady came out, there were a few discrepancies identified with the RB map. It's possible this is more of the same, though I'm not sure what anyone could or would be willing to do about any such discrepancies coming to light now.

 

[stuh42asl]

In the rule book it states a factory with staircase is 2.5 levels, but regarding the actual physical pictures of the hall, it is not 2.5 levels, it is more 1.5 levels. The factory is very very wide, but not as tall as say the RB factories. In the CG it does not physically state the actual height of HALL 4. This is one of the rules I looking at for my own purpose. One of the biggest reasons is this, artillery observation, if the factory is 2 1/2 levels high, you would not be able to land a SR into the roofless hall. Unless you were on a building roof right next to it, or in a ground level location adjacent to it. The battle reports stated that the Hall 4 was not a very tall. So asking what is the actual ruling on the height of Hall 4, 2 1/2 levels, or 1 1/2 levels? The reason the RO CG is so contentious is there is quite a lot of discrepencies that were not included, that would improve it. A lot of ASLers here claim RO CG 2 is a dog of a campaign, but there is a lot of information on the building and the surrounding area, and even numbers of troops per side that have been left out, or simplified. For about 3-4 months I have searched for pictures, information, descriptions , of course I cannot travel to the site., so have to rely on photos and battle reports.

 

[bprobst]

I still don't know why you're asking the question. Are you saying that in your opinion the designers of RO have gotten the details wrong? Certainly they may have, and you're allowed to have your opinion -- but that's all it is; your opinion vs. their opinion. Guess which opinion was published as actual game rules?

It's a factory with printed (square) stairwells; therefore, it's 2.5 levels tall. End of story.

 

[stuh42asl]

I still don't know why you're asking the question. Are you saying that in your opinion the designers of RO have gotten the details wrong? Certainly they may have, and you're allowed to have your opinion -- but that's all it is; your opinion vs. their opinion. Guess which opinion was published as actual game rules?

It's a factory with printed (square) stairwells; therefore, it's 2.5 levels tall. End of story.

Well, what a snarky attitude you have....I am working on a project for myself, I asked for a honest answer to improve the Red October CG for myself or anyone else here who would like to try it, to enjoy a game we all love to play, I have been playing since 1985, and I like to research the CG historical side of ASL. I spent almost 4 months on research for myself to keep my sanity over covid isolation. So first off Mr probst, you are an elitist, who thinks the ground they stand on regarding ASL is holy, it is not. I am not insulting the designers , I understand that in terms of designing Red October Red Factories a certain amount of creative license must be employed, and due to the Russian control of their archives, that not all information is available or correct.I ask the above questions because there are many players here who have masters and doctorate degrees in history here who could have an insite into these questions I have brought forward. Your opinon ,to me, matters not. You are the reason why a lot of gamers turn away from an established game system, re: your attitude. I will still enjoy this site despite your elitist attitude, have a nice day sir.

 

[Hutch]

Reminds me of a certain Herr Oberst, who was redesigning J.P. Brunell's (Le Loup) campaign game "Poland Aflame" a few years back.

 

[stuh42asl]

We don't know why he is asking. When Jason Mark's book on the Barrikady came out, there were a few discrepancies identified with the RB map. It's possible this is more of the same, though I'm not sure what anyone could or would be willing to do about any such discrepancies coming to light now.

Michael, I primarily play the CG's , I pull out a CG, play a few scenarios, and CG, and research the battle. During covid, I am really isolated due to being immuno compromised, so doing this fits perfectly. The questions I ask is to design more accurate version of the CG, I sometimes offer the update to those who would like to try it most of the times it is for my enjoyment. This is a forum to ask questions about ASL, so I ask them. Maybe some day, an update I make may be on interest to the origional designers, who knows.

Shane

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So first off Mr probst, you are an elitist, who thinks the ground they stand on regarding ASL is holy, it is not. I am not insulting the designers , I understand that in terms of designing Red October Red Factories a certain amount of creative license must be employed, and due to the Russian control of their archives, that not all information is available or correct.I ask the above questions because there are many players here who have masters and doctorate degrees in history here who could have an insite into these questions I have brought forward. Your opinon ,to me, matters not. You are the reason why a lot of gamers turn away from an established game system, your attitude. I will still enjoy this site despite your elitist attitude, have a nice day sir.

Believe it or not, but under fire, Aussie Pitman can be a wonderful human being. All he needs is somebody throwing hand grenades at him for the rest of his life.

With any luck you'll land on his ignore list. It's not a bad place to be.

 

[von Marwitz]

Well, what a snarky attitude you have....I am working on a project for myself, I asked for a honest answer to improve the Red October CG for myself or anyone else here who would like to try it, to enjoy a game we all love to play, I have been playing since 1985, and I like to research the CG historical side of ASL. I spent almost 4 months on research for myself to keep my sanity over covid isolation. So first off Mr probst, you are an elitist, who thinks the ground they stand on regarding ASL is holy, it is not. I am not insulting the designers , I understand that in terms of designing Red October Red Factories a certain amount of creative license must be employed, and due to the Russian control of their archives, that not all information is available or correct.I ask the above questions because there are many players here who have masters and doctorate degrees in history here who could have an insite into these questions I have brought forward. Your opinon ,to me, matters not. You are the reason why a lot of gamers turn away from an established game system, your attitude. I will still enjoy this site despite your elitist attitude, have a nice day sir.

Guys, my advice would be just to calm down a little.

Those who have been around here for a long time know that Bruce now and then is prone to be a bit grumpy but also know how to take it and not to overrate it, as he is one of the 'white hat guys', really. That said, I acknowledge that those who aren't familiar with him might feel offended. I am not justifying anything, merely advising to take it with a grain of salt.

Bruce 'Fuzzy' Probst, the white hat guy, featuring in the 'Border Feud':



von Marwitz

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Guys, my advice would be just to calm down a little.

Those who have been around here for a long time know that Bruce now and then is prone to be a bit grumpy but also know how to take it and not to overrate it, as he is one of the 'white hat guys', really. That said, I acknowledge that those who aren't familiar with him might feel offended. I am not justifying anything, merely advising to take it with a grain of salt.

Bruce 'Fuzzy' Probst, the white hat guy, featuring in the 'Border Feud':

View attachment 16089

von Marwitz

You call that a hand grenade?

 

[stuh42asl]

Believe it or not, but under fire, Aussie Pitman can be a wonderful human being. All he needs is somebody throwing hand grenades at him for the rest of his life.

With any luck you'll land on his ignore list. It's not a bad place to be.

Kind of fits me as well. A grumpy old veteran, 2 tours and two bad feet, knees, and a wrecked shoulder. dealing with PTSD, almost deaf on one side and constantly in severe pain and on days like today, I COULD EAT NAILS, AND PEE ACID (No joke, chronic pain, anxiety disorder, panic attacks are a nightmare). All I can say to any who have served, seems that when we retire, we spend most of our time complaining, and comparing medication and scars.) No biggy

 

[Eagle4ty]

Kind of fits me as well. A grumpy old veteran, 2 tours and two bad feet, knees, and a wrecked shoulder. dealing with PTSD, almost deaf on one side and constantly in severe pain and on days like today, I COULD EAT NAILS, AND PEE ACID (No joke, chronic pain, anxiety disorder, panic attacks are a nightmare). All I can say to any who have served, seems that when we retire, we spend most of our time complaining, and comparing medication and scars.) No biggy

You're not me, are you?

 

[Gordon]

You're not me, are you?

Not another "senior moment"? I'm starting to worry about you.

 

[TopT]

Kind of fits me as well. A grumpy old veteran, 2 tours and two bad feet, knees, and a wrecked shoulder. dealing with PTSD, almost deaf on one side and constantly in severe pain and on days like today, I COULD EAT NAILS, AND PEE ACID (No joke, chronic pain, anxiety disorder, panic attacks are a nightmare). All I can say to any who have served, seems that when we retire, we spend most of our time complaining, and comparing medication and scars.) No biggy

Oh man, this sounds like me. Seriously, 4 tours, chronic pain, PTSD, nightmares and the wrecked shoulder! I have scars but I had them all before I joined. Sucks but I can honestly say that I would probably do it again. As you say, no biggie!

 

[bprobst]

I asked for a honest answer

What did you think was "dishonest" about what I wrote?

So first off Mr probst, you are an elitist

I do not think that word means what you think it means. It's not "elitist" to think that someone is silly if they do and say silly things.

I am not insulting the designers

No, you're just questioning their every decision and assuming that you know better than them. Hard to see how anyone could feel insulted about that. (Not that I ever accused you of insulting anyone? Do you put more effort into your "research" than you do reading online posts?)

You are the reason why a lot of gamers turn away from an established game system

I had no idea I had so much power. Tomorrow, the world!

 

[AdrianE]

Have you seen this video? CGI fly around at 26 minutes