Do You Like How The USMC Are Re-Created In ASL?

[Blackcloud6]

I think Overlord counts as a biggie.

I'm only talking about the Pacific. Comparing the Pacific and European Theaters is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Blackcloud6]

Are the Marines "horn blowers"?...you bet...but they are better at it than anyone else.

Yep. A marine friend of mine told me once that the primary mission of the Marine Corps was to promote the Marine Corps.

There is nothing wrong with building a unit mystique which fosters elan which fosters cohesion.

A lot of "elite" units in the world are based on that, but keep it by backing it up in combat. One cannot take that away from the USMC.

After all, one has to have high moral when one's service's only tactic is "high diddle diddle right up the middle."

(I'm proud of myself, look how long I went in this thread before making a dig at my Marine bretheren)

 

[richfam]

Who designed Gung Ho?

Design credits for both Code of Bushido and Gung Ho are found at the bottom of page G16.

Design & Development: Bob McNamara

Historical Research: Bob McNamara and many others...

 

[Sarjent Mike]

Excellent designer's notes are available in The General, 28-2, an article by Steven Swann.

As to the high Leader Generation Number for the Marines - "The training that every Marine rifleman received upon induction always included the basics of military leadership. American Marines were taught, and expected, to take command in any situation where they found themselves to be the senior man present. Because of the high proportion of officer casualties that occurred in the Pacific war, it was not at all unusual to find platoons lead by corporals and companies led by sergeants."

The large number of squad types - "Squad firepower for the Marines was a thorny problem for the ASL design team. In 1942, a USMC rifle platoon had four squads, of which three were nine-man rifle squads and the fourth an eight-man BAR squad. The rifle squads were equipped with one BAR and eight M1903 bolt-action rifles...
"During 1943, all Marine rifle squads were reorganized and equipped with at least two BARs and the number of men increased to 12 per squad...by 1943 all Marine companies had been issued the new M1 Garand rifles.
"By 1944 the Marine rifle squad was increased to include three BARs and gained an extra man as well..."

A large portion of the article deals with the high morale of USMC squad types. Swann makes some notable arguments based on history of the Corps prior to WWII, and some examples from Korea as well. He acknowledges that a Morale level of "8" "will likely raise a controversry between various players (especially those from one branch of the services or the other)..."

There were play balance issues as well. The Japanese are tough, "fighting and dying even when victory was impossible." Their unique characteristics are managed well and pretty realistically in ASL. "The USMC and the Japanese regular went head to head on the beaches and coastal areas many times."

"The morale level of "8" is a justifiable value for the Marines, who were the elite amhibious assault troops of the US forces in the Pacific and whose elan became legendary. ...even the Army's General MacArthur wanted to retain the Marines for leading his amphibious assaults in the SW Pacific, and in fact kept the 1st and 3rd MarDivs under his direct command as long as he could."

 

[Robin Reeve]

Defenitly not someone from Switzerland:clown:

What kind of comment is that?

LOL.
One winter, after the Swiss won the America's cup sailships contest, when the Swiss ski champions didn't reap a lot of medals, a Swiss said to another :
- We didn't do well this winter...
- Of course: we are a nation of sailors!

 

[Robin Reeve]

I am glad that there were no SS marines.
I cannot imagine the values that the ASL designers would have given to them - not speaking of the camouflage advantage of black counters for operations on the Black Sea coast !

 

[soggycrow]

Design credits for both Code of Bushido and Gung Ho are found at the bottom of page G16.

Design & Development: Bob McNamara

Historical Research: Bob McNamara and many others...

Missed that. I suspected it though.

 

[Blackcloud6]

Swann makes some notable arguments based on history of the Corps prior to WWII, and some examples from Korea as well. He acknowledges that a Morale level of "8" "will likely raise a controversry between various players (especially those from one branch of the services or the other)..."

Just for the record, I'm in the Army and still support the 8 morale for the Marines in ASL.

There were play balance issues as well. The Japanese are tough, "fighting and dying even when victory was impossible." Their unique characteristics are managed well and pretty realistically in ASL. "The USMC and the Japanese regular went head to head on the beaches and coastal areas many times."

I think this is what Mark is disputing, saying that the Army had to fight similar actions... and were successful.

 

[Dr Zaius]

One of the most celebrated victories of the Marine Corps is the Battle of Okinawa. Mention that battle to anyone and they will say "Marines!" And the Corps certainly did a fine job there, as usual. Few people even realize the Army "participated."

However, what most people don't know--and information no Marine is likely to mention--is that the Corps actually shouldered a smaller portion of this battle than most want to admit. The U.S. Army and Navy contributed the bulk of the forces and suffered the lion's share of the casualties as well.

Army

• Killed: 4,412
• Wounded: 17,689
• Missing: 81
• Non-battle: 12,554

Marine

• Killed: 2,779
• Wounded: 13,609
• Missing: 119
• Non-battle: 10,217

Navy

• Killed: 4,907

Now that's excellent PR in action.

 

[soggycrow]

I'm only talking about the Pacific. Comparing the Pacific and European Theaters is like comparing apples to oranges.

Exactly. It's not like we're comparing apples and Buicks.

 

[daniel zucker]

How to find...

Where can I find that?

JT

JT all you have to do is use the Thread search tools by typing in a few key pharses the serch tool will find all the Threads that the pharse is in

In case no one has posted this yet its from the ASL FAQ

ASL FAQ Part 4

Daniel :headbang:

 

[sswann]

Who designed Gung Ho?

Bob MacNamara, Rex Martin and mtself along with some USMC advisors. :surprise:

 

[sswann]

I agreee with the 'too many squads types' assertion.

5-5-8s and 7-6-8s would have been plenty, IMO.

Then you should have seen the original NINE squad types first proposed!
They started with 4-5-7 and increased from there. It was only after much playtesting the they were whittled down to the present 4 squad types. I still have my original PT USMC squad types and will not part with them for anything.

 

[wrongway149]

I am glad that there were no SS marines.
I cannot imagine the values that the ASL designers would have given to them - not speaking of the camouflage advantage of black counters for operations on the Black Sea coast !

Especially at night...

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

In other words, your point might have validity if the USMC only engaged in quick assaults on small islands or atolls. However, all too often (on Guadalcanal, Bougainville, etc.) the fighting they engaged in was *exactly* the same sort of fighting the U.S. army was engaged in. Which means that your point is not valid in those situations, because the type of fighting they were involved in, in those situations, clearly does not justify a difference between the US Army and USMC.

Holland Smith, and others, would disagree.

 

[Pitman]

Holland Smith, and others, would disagree.

Holland Smith is hardly an objective source. But if he disagrees, he is feel to post here.

 

[Blackcloud6]

But if he disagrees, he is feel to post here.

Now there's a reason to get out the Ouiji board!

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

Holland Smith is hardly an objective source. But if he disagrees, he is feel to post here.

Neither are you:clown:

And, representing the "others", I will take you up on your offer:

I do like the portrayal of the MARINES, especially as it shows the rapid adaptations they made from a bolt-action rifle squad to the lead-spewing 3xBAR, M-1 armed offensive machine. The lesser FP rated squads elegantly show units left in the line for protracted periods as well as the reduced FP of one- and two-BAR armed units during the evolution.

They are no more over-represented than other units and are moreso than others, falling somewhere in that vague emotional level of conflict they always have between pro- and opponents of THE CORPS.

I do find it odd, though, that some will, out of one corner of their mouth, implore for more 'realism' in ASL (be it design, capabilities, what have you) and out of the other corner, impale that very same level of detail or 'realism' as "too much" as it suits them.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I do find it odd, though, that some will, out of one corner of their mouth, implore for more 'realism' in ASL (be it design, capabilities, what have you) and out of the other corner, impale that very same level of detail or 'realism' as "too much" as it suits them.

That is exactly the fate and nature of realism arguments: they serve one's personal view of reality... and as that view differs from one to another, a realism argument will be both held up or rejected.

 

[Pitman]

Neither are you:clown:

And, representing the "others", I will take you up on your offer:

I do like the portrayal of the MARINES, especially as it shows the rapid adaptations they made from a bolt-action rifle squad to the lead-spewing 3xBAR, M-1 armed offensive machine. The lesser FP rated squads elegantly show units left in the line for protracted periods as well as the reduced FP of one- and two-BAR armed units during the evolution.

They are no more over-represented than other units and are moreso than others, falling somewhere in that vague emotional level of conflict they always have between pro- and opponents of THE CORPS.

I do find it odd, though, that some will, out of one corner of their mouth, implore for more 'realism' in ASL (be it design, capabilities, what have you) and out of the other corner, impale that very same level of detail or 'realism' as "too much" as it suits them.

In this thread I mentioned none of those things. I only addressed the issue of USMC morale vis a vis the morale of other elite US units. So I am not sure I understand why you chose to respond to issues I did not bring up.