Do you feel your respective Nationality is Represented Well?

Gunner Scott

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,727
Reaction score
2,652
Location
Chicago, IL
Country
llUnited States
hi-

Since we have such a cosmopoliten group of people here, and I need to take a break from writing my D&D game, What do you guys think of how your repective country's are represented in ASL?

For example, I hate the fact that American Para Troopers have a seven moral level, but thats life in the big city I guess.


Scott
 

Jack Dionne

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
933
Reaction score
3
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
Country
llCanada
I remember reading a book years ago about American Para's and thier training in WWII(can't remember the name of the book). I would of thought they if anybody should have a morale of 8. I am an ex paratrooper BTW (Canadian Military).
 

sswann

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
2,909
Reaction score
1,372
Location
Middle of Kansas
First name
Steven
Country
llUnited States
I talked with Bob McNamara about 12-16 years ago about the US Rangers and the US-Canadian FSSF being issued with a 8 morale. Bob did not want to rewrite the National Characteristics part of chapter A... he felt that it would confuse some ASL'ers. I still would like to see a 8 Morale MMC for those very special US units.

S
 

Commissar Piotr

War Pig
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
65
Location
Uppsala
Country
llSweden
Hi Guys

Sorry, my comment here was completely off-topic so now deleted.
I need my glasses to be able to read what the question was before I reply.
 
Last edited:

paulkenny

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
3,848
Reaction score
54
Location
USA
I think the minors should have a larger variety of troops. For example the Greeks should not have 4 FP.
 

Commissar Piotr

War Pig
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
65
Location
Uppsala
Country
llSweden
Hi Guys

I did not know Paul was a Greek, seems he made the same mistake as I did.
Paul, get those glasses ordered...
;)
 

JRKrejsa

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
3,667
Reaction score
1,094
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
paulkenny said:
I think the minors should have a larger variety of troops. For example the Greeks should not have 4 FP.
If I remember correctly, When the Minors first came out, in Squad Leader, NOT Advanced Squad Leader, they had a 3-?-7 squad. I also think this would be a good fit for some situations.
 

Aries

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
5
Location
Earth
Country
llCanada
I think the Marines and SS counters did a good job of illustrating, that even the super units, didn't have a stagnant one counter only through the entire war representation.

As such, I think it's important to remember, no counter will be ever able to completely represent a formation or nationality consistently.

I think, it is possible to say, that just about every nation, can use counters ranging from 3 all the way through to 8 on firepower given the right conditions, that morale can easily wander from being accurate as a 5 all the way through to an 8, and that ranges can easily vary from 4 thru 6 with little difficulty if the situation merits it.

Getting the predominant over all values accurate, means some actions will lock horns with the standardized counters eventually.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,499
Reaction score
5,421
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I am half British and half Swiss.
I have a preference for the Brist in ASL, and I do find them well represented.
Among the appreciable elements : no cowering for 1st line and elite - very decent smoke availability - 6-4-8 airborne are fine - LMG 7 hex normal range - cool HoB -1 DRM...

As the Swiss are not yet available in ASL form - and I don't see why they would be some day - half of myself accepts an everlasting but faint feeling of frustration...
 

ecz

Partisan Captain
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Messages
4,430
Reaction score
599
Location
Italy
Country
llItaly
Italians

Speaking about Italians, to remain into the topic, I feel they are depicted in a realistic manner.
SSRs have to be used, when necessary, to enhance their carateristics to reflect special circumstances or situations where they performed particularly well as did Alpini in Russia or Folgore Paratroops in Afrika, for example.
 

A/CSM Bird

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2004
Messages
683
Reaction score
17
Location
The cellar CP
Country
llCanada
sswann said:
I talked with Bob McNamara about 12-16 years ago about the US Rangers and the US-Canadian FSSF being issued with a 8 morale. Bob did not want to rewrite the National Characteristics part of chapter A... he felt that it would confuse some ASL'ers. I still would like to see a 8 Morale MMC for those very special US units.

S
I agree. The question remains; with the release of AoO and the system complete is there not the opportunity to tweak a shortcoming such as this via a Pak or Journal with counters , scenarios, and revised RB pages? :hmmm:
 

BobO

Argentine Dove Hunter
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Messages
1,721
Reaction score
77
Location
VA
Country
llUnited States
oh yeah
with blonde counters
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
I think very little about the American counters are done right. As they are now, there are 7-6-8 Marine supermen, yet most American troops have poorer morale than most Rumanian troops! Moreover, Filipino troops in 1942 have a higher morale than regular American troops.
 

FrankH.

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Messages
929
Reaction score
150
Location
New Mexico York
sswann said:
I talked with Bob McNamara about 12-16 years ago about the US Rangers and the US-Canadian FSSF being issued with a 8 morale. Bob did not want to rewrite the National Characteristics part of chapter A... he felt that it would confuse some ASL'ers. I still would like to see a 8 Morale MMC for those very special US units.

S
Could this be solved by a note in the US national characteristics (A25.3) simply starting that these units should generally be represented as Fanatic? There were several Ranger battalions if I recall correctly and I am not sure all of them would warrant an 8 morale or commando capabilities, however.

Would all these units get an ELR of 5? I am not sure.

Frank
 

FrankH.

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Messages
929
Reaction score
150
Location
New Mexico York
Ronnblom said:
I'm still waiting for the Swedish ASL module.
Why not come up with a proposal for this? Consider combining it with the other "neutrals" including Turkey & Spain.

Not sure how many scenarios they could be involved in, however.

Frank
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,499
Reaction score
5,421
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
FrankH. said:
Why not come up with a proposal for this? Consider combining it with the other "neutrals" including Turkey & Spain.

Not sure how many scenarios they could be involved in, however.

Frank
Spanish Azul Division fought against the Soviets : Tactiques and Schwerpunkt (and others?) designed scenarios with them.
The Spanish Civil War is also an interesting topic - CH made a module, but it would be great if MMP produced one with "standard" ASL counters.

Don't forget the Swiss if you want to depict neutrals.
And what about the Irish (Eire) ? Or were they too much "pro-German" to be counted as neutral ? :devil: (in fact, Swedish and Swiss made some lucrative deals with the 3rd Reich, which may have helped them stay out of the war, so their "neutrality" had a cost)...
 

'Ol Fezziwig

Repressed Dissident
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
6,638
Reaction score
721
Location
hazy fold of reality
Country
llUnited States
Pitman said:
I think very little about the American counters are done right. As they are now, there are 7-6-8 Marine supermen, yet most American troops have poorer morale than most Rumanian troops! Moreover, Filipino troops in 1942 have a higher morale than regular American troops.
Not picking on the Pitbull here, but I have no problem with the depiction of US troops.

At all.

Sure, the MARINES have 7-6-8 'supermen' but only for the latter portion of the war. The additional 2 BARs more than compensates for the additional FP rating. The ML, well, the MARINES were an established force with an established doctrine (which varied greatly from the US Army doctrine of the time) as opposed to say, Rangers or Paratroopers-both of which saw their genesis during or directly preceding WW2. To grant them equal morale status doesn't seem to be warranted (though they ARE equal on the broken side, no?) at this point in time.

I have no issue with a 7 ML for Rangers or Paras; given the entire capabilities of the squad (FP, Assault Fire, smoke/WP capability, range, underlined ML, broken side ML), they are a formidable opponent to whomsoever they face. As for comparing their ML to other nationalities, it may be true, but only as regards GO morale state. To imply they are lacking in other aspects is simply untrue and ignores the myriad other areas in which they greatly outclass those nationalities whose ML they may be equal or are lesser than. Compare how long a broken US squad (1st line OR Paratrooper) stays broken compared to that Rumanian squad. Even better, how many leaders can that Romanian player spare for rally duties in comparison to the US player? Will that Romanian squad have a greater or lesser chance to harm a US squad from 5-8 hexes away, especially with that very same US squad hurling scads of lead in its direction? (I won't even get into SW allocation, either).

To compare a nationality's characteristics, you have to look much deeper than an individual squad type's ratings; the true strengths and weaknesses are not merely the x-x-x of a particular squad type or someones's personal thoughts on whether it is somehow insulting that squad type "x" has 'inferior' ratings compared to squad type "Y". I, for one, like the depiction of US troops and feel it greatly adds to the feel of ASL. There is not another nationality quite like them. Frustrating at times? Sure, but always a challenge to use well. I am not a fan of 'cookie-cutter' gaming and like the fact that ASL makes me utilise each nationality in its own peculiar way for success as opposed to a blanket approach to tactics. That might be okay for some, but not I.

(As for the Filipinos, they WERE defending their homeland, so an increase in ML is not too much of a reach from where I sit.)
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
[QUOTE='Ol Fezziwig]
Sure, the MARINES have 7-6-8 'supermen' but only for the latter portion of the war. The additional 2 BARs more than compensates for the additional FP rating. The ML, well, the MARINES were an established force with an established doctrine (which varied greatly from the US Army doctrine of the time) as opposed to say, Rangers or Paratroopers-both of which saw their genesis during or directly preceding WW2. To grant them equal morale status doesn't seem to be warranted (though they ARE equal on the broken side, no?) at this point in time.
[/quote]

Doctrine has nothing to do with moral levels. Berserkers are not following doctrine, yet they have a morale of 10. There is nothing about Marine Corps amphibious doctrine which would suggest it comes with higher morale, and there is certainly nothing in the performance of any Marine Division that would suggest it is any better than, say, the 82nd Airborne Division. Performance is what you have to look at.


I have no issue with a 7 ML for Rangers or Paras; given the entire capabilities of the squad (FP, Assault Fire, smoke/WP capability, range, underlined ML, broken side ML), they are a formidable opponent to whomsoever they face. As for comparing their ML to other nationalities, it may be true, but only as regards GO morale state.
The question is not whether or not they have smoke capability, but whether their morale is represented correctly. And there is no evidence out there that would suggest to me that Marine troops are elite enough to have an 8 morale, like the morale level of most other elite forces of various nationalities (French, British, Finnish, Allied Minor, Russian, German/SS, Japanese), but somehow non-Marine American elite units actually had a lower morale level than the elite troops of all those other nationalities. It doesn't wash, it doesn't make sense, and there is not evidence to support it.

<snips>

(As for the Filipinos, they WERE defending their homeland, so an increase in ML is not too much of a reach from where I sit.)
[/quote]

Again, you have to look at performance, not hypotheticals. Regardless of whether they were defending their homeland or not, entire Filipino units disintegrated upon first contact with the Japense. It was a very common feature in December 1941 and January 1942. It was not until after they had undergone a considerable baptism of fire, and their weakest links already killed, deserted, or surrendered, that their performance improved. Even then, their morale was certainly in no way better than the morale of a typical US infantry division.

The "6" US morale just does not fly when you consider the reality of the performance.
 
Top