DN2: Chasseurs at Yvoir

phlegm027

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Interesting, you would suggest using half-squads rather than full squads? I sent two full squads out (as you say, Turn 1) on the theory that their average-time-to-place-the-DC would be a full turn less, and that one could cover the other with smoke grenades if things got uncomfortably hot on the bridge. Would I have been better off using the squads elsewhere, do you think?
You can’t use the squads smoke exponent if you’re trying to set a demo charge so putting half squads out there well it does increase the time need to set last year to have the squads to fighting in covering the wagon since they move up the smoke and be beneficial down river banks to cut lines of sight to the bridge to the other people to get across it’s a tough fight lotta stuff can go wrong for both sides the Germans can get the Ramen
 

phlegm027

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Damn voice typing with my teeth out
This scenario piqued my interest out of the box as well. My partner and I started it on VASL. I was the Allies. He had a tough time getting the jist of it as the Germans. He lost interest and we've not finished it. I thought it was obvious that the ACs either parked right on the bridge, or brought their firepower to bear on it from nearby would make it quite difficult to place the DCs let alone get across the bridge. I'd be interested to see an AAR where the Belgians won. I'm going to keep my eye on this one and try it again.
pj if you want to try it again I’m game.
you pick sides.
 

Markdv5208

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I am half way thru this one with Jeff DY with me as the Germans.

The great taunt I have for him? You have to surrender those wagons. We're going to need them next year in Russia.....

I think this is a tough one for the Allied-Belgian player. GET CVP across the river AND blow the bridge? Too much to do.....

BTW I choose to delay entry of 3 of the platoons to turn 3. I think that's the border line better answer for the Germans.
 

John Fedoriw

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Hi gents,

I just finished playing this scenario for the first time; losing as the Belgians. It is a really fun scenario which I would gladly play again. My opponent initially thought it did not look too interesting but said he changed his mind after playing it.

I managed to get about 23 points across (including both armored units (1 with a busted MA), 3 wagons and assorted infantry, set 2 DC counters on the bridge and managed to detonate one on German turn 8 (which destroyed a bridge span). I knew I had lost but figured blowing the bridge was a moral victory if nothing else.

It definitely has a greater learning curve for the Belgians (by some margin IMHO). We both made mistakes. He by bad mortar placement. Me by bad placement of some of my AC destroying weaponry, and points 1 & 2 below. We also had a big melee which the Germans should have won initially but was failed by the dice. It ended up having more & more units fed into it and eventually went the Belgians way. This was a fairly critical event.

Things I noted for the Belgians that seemed VERY important:

1 - Where the Belgian places the roadblocks is critical. I made a mistake with one of mine. I misread a rule and thought that a roadblock between a building and a river hex was the same as between 2 buildings in regards to LOS. It isn't, in the former the roadblock is not considered to extend to the center dot of the river hex . I think one (maybe even 2) placed right next to the bridge is a good idea (to give cover to engineers sneaking onto the bridge to place DCs (and evacuees)). I did not do this but would if I played again.

2 - You have a lot of DCs. I managed to get 2 set on the bridge and had several to spare. Maybe consider using a couple to wire the most dangerous observation points onto the bridge? (If this had occurred to me during our game I think I may have won). The bane of this (at least for me) is the TC required to detonate the DC - twice in Stalingrad I have had 2 super juicy stacks wander into hidden set DC hexes only to have my unit flub the roll and not detonate the DC - can you say frustrating!?).

3 - The armor which enters on turn 3 can excessive speed to get onto a hill overlooking the action on turn 1. Maybe consider doing it if the Belgian is in a bind. I did this and he passed the roll. Once he started blasting ACs things began to look much brighter. After they were all dead he stayed there for the rest of the game because he couldn't pass his TC to move independently (having no radio).

4 - The wagons are too slow. I did not gallop any of them until turn 7. Then I did 1 and he passed his 1 turn wreck roll. If you don't gallop them I don't think any will arrive at the bridge before turn 6. I think it may be wise to risk 1 or 2 here or there. You have to declare a gallop at the start of the movement which sucks because if you could do it mid way through a move there are some places you could get a few extra hexes without risking turning.

I lost because he managed to get 1 spot where he could interdict the bridge and then his dice were really hot, blasting me as I ran across. I used the armor to give some cover on the west side of the bridge but it wasn't enough. The Belgians could really use some smoke. Unfortunately they only have smoke grenades and the units with them need the MPs to get across.

Still it ended very close IMHO & was a lot of fun. I give it 2 thumbs up.
 

John Fedoriw

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I just had another thought regarding this....

Belgian suggestion 5 - Use the French artillery primarily to defensively use the 1.57 FFE LOS HINDRANCE to cover your evacuation rather than with the mindset that you use it offensively to damage enemy units. (That is if you get radio contact & don't draw red...but that's another story LOL).
 

phlegm027

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Here’s some shots of the railroad underpasses in the elevated railroad. You can get an idea of why the railroad slopes up from Ground Level to Elevated.
1885018850188721887318874These four pictures show the starting setup and the action at the bridge when the wagons were trying to get across.
the Belgians won getting 3 wagons and enough infantry across to allow the engineer leader to blow the Western side. As the Belgian/French player I find it better to fire at the German stacks that can shoot the folks mucking about with the DC’s.
We found that if we gave the Belgians more they were able to turn the bridge into a fortress. Historically the Belgians blew the bridge before the column got across.
This scenario was tough to balance. The High Command wanted the bridge down and the guys doing the shooting wanted to keep the bridge up to get more of their people across.
You get screwed up things happening in war. This scenario makes for a tough day as the Allied player. The Jazzy mounted 47mm ATG’ s can be devastating vs the nazi sauerkraut cans.
And who doesn’t want to at some time in their lives want to whip the asses of the horse team doing 30 mph on a cobblestone road and pull hard on the left hand reins?
We wanted this scenario to be more than just another get X# of units across the bridge. I think it is a pretty fun play. For both sides.
 

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John Fedoriw

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As the Belgian/French player I find it better to fire at the German stacks that can shoot the folks mucking about with the DC’s.
I agree.

And who doesn’t want to at some time in their lives want to whip the asses of the horse team doing 30 mph on a cobblestone road and pull hard on the left hand reins?
Who? Me...I don't want to LOL. You have a 1 in 6 chance of wrecking on every turn and there are A LOT of turns going down those narrow streets. On the other hand I guess you dance with the devil when the deal says you must.

We wanted this scenario to be more than just another get X# of units across the bridge. I think it is a pretty fun play. For both sides.
I agree again.

I am actually giving this another try as the Belgians with a different opponent next Wed.

I am unsure of what to do with those sh*tty Belgian mortars (they don't even get an airburst). In my last game I set them up mainly in the north on top of the cliff to hopefully get a lucky kill (need a 3 or less to do anything) against an OT AC. (I had 1 in the south to target hexes UU34 to UU37 in case the Germans tried to outflank the Belgians along that hill). This accomplished nothing.

Is it better to place them in the south to interdict Germans moving along the river bank? Or dump the mortars and run to the East side? Even with only a 1 FP those crews can occupy space and slow the Axis down. I am undecided.....any ideas?

This brings up another point. I have another Belgian suggestion - #6 - VC require you to exit units that begin on the East of the bridge. It says nothing about units which set up west of the bridge. The Allied player could consider bringing some of the units which start on the west directly over to the East side to more effectively bolster the defense there and maybe free some Eastern units to flee. I did this with a few in my last game but it did not help too much (too little too late).
 

pj norton

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Here’s some shots of the railroad underpasses in the elevated railroad. You can get an idea of why the railroad slopes up from Ground Level to Elevated.
View attachment 18850View attachment 18850View attachment 18872View attachment 18873View attachment 18874These four pictures show the starting setup and the action at the bridge when the wagons were trying to get across.
the Belgians won getting 3 wagons and enough infantry across to allow the engineer leader to blow the Western side. As the Belgian/French player I find it better to fire at the German stacks that can shoot the folks mucking about with the DC’s.
We found that if we gave the Belgians more they were able to turn the bridge into a fortress. Historically the Belgians blew the bridge before the column got across.
This scenario was tough to balance. The High Command wanted the bridge down and the guys doing the shooting wanted to keep the bridge up to get more of their people across.
You get screwed up things happening in war. This scenario makes for a tough day as the Allied player. The Jazzy mounted 47mm ATG’ s can be devastating vs the nazi sauerkraut cans.
And who doesn’t want to at some time in their lives want to whip the asses of the horse team doing 30 mph on a cobblestone road and pull hard on the left hand reins?
We wanted this scenario to be more than just another get X# of units across the bridge. I think it is a pretty fun play. For both sides.
Great pictures!
 

Carln0130

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I agree.



Who? Me...I don't want to LOL. You have a 1 in 6 chance of wrecking on every turn and there are A LOT of turns going down those narrow streets. On the other hand I guess you dance with the devil when the deal says you must.



I agree again.

I am actually giving this another try as the Belgians with a different opponent next Wed.

I am unsure of what to do with those sh*tty Belgian mortars (they don't even get an airburst). In my last game I set them up mainly in the north on top of the cliff to hopefully get a lucky kill (need a 3 or less to do anything) against an OT AC. (I had 1 in the south to target hexes UU34 to UU37 in case the Germans tried to outflank the Belgians along that hill). This accomplished nothing.

Is it better to place them in the south to interdict Germans moving along the river bank? Or dump the mortars and run to the East side? Even with only a 1 FP those crews can occupy space and slow the Axis down. I am undecided.....any ideas?

This brings up another point. I have another Belgian suggestion - #6 - VC require you to exit units that begin on the East of the bridge. It says nothing about units which set up west of the bridge. The Allied player could consider bringing some of the units which start on the west directly over to the East side to more effectively bolster the defense there and maybe free some Eastern units to flee. I did this with a few in my last game but it did not help too much (too little too late).
Those lousy Belgian mortars eat German A/C's for French Toast. Or should I say, Belgian waffles?
 

John Fedoriw

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Those lousy Belgian mortars eat German A/C's for French Toast. Or should I say, Belgian waffles?
I am seriously considering running them over the bridge to have the 127 crews help plug holes. They only have a ROF of 2, get no airbursts and will effect the OT AVs on a roll of 3. Do you really think they are better off firing at the ACs then just occupying space on the East of the bridge (cutting down German movement options)?
 

Carln0130

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I am seriously considering running them over the bridge to have the 127 crews help plug holes. They only have a ROF of 2, get no airbursts and will effect the OT AVs on a roll of 3. Do you really think they are better off firing at the ACs then just occupying space on the East of the bridge (cutting down German movement options)?
On a DR of 5 or less, not 3.
 

John Fedoriw

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DOH!!! You are correct. That is a gross oversight on my part!! Thanks for that. Those mtrs stay on the West and blast ACs!!
 

Houlie

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Wow, just reading thru this thread. Thank you to all who have chimed in with thoughtful comments and input! It makes me want to play this scenario. To this point, I have not gotten around to playing any of the Dinant scenarios, but I have a strong feeling that will change in the near future. I would love to see more of these scenario analyses!
 

boylermaker

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I'm interested in all of the comments from the designers about how the Belgians have all these tools for killing the German armored cars.

I mean, yes yes sure true good point, but this wasn't at all relevant in our playing. The German gets approximately 1000 small armored vehicles, which can park in LOS of the bridge and interdict it starting turn 1. Yes, they all die to Belgian AT fire in a couple turns, but their job is just to prevent the Belgian AE's from setting the DC on the first 2-3 turns. By that point the Germans have put multiple machinegun nests in the stone buildings south of the bridge that cover the bridge. The Belgian player has no way of preventing this from happening, no real way of dealing with them once they are in place, and I don't really see how the bridge can get blown with them in position.

Now ROAR has this scenario all the way up to 8-4; I'd still love to hear from those four Belgian victors. Two of those wins were in the last couple of months; chime in, fellows!
 

Carln0130

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I'm interested in all of the comments from the designers about how the Belgians have all these tools for killing the German armored cars.

I mean, yes yes sure true good point, but this wasn't at all relevant in our playing. The German gets approximately 1000 small armored vehicles, which can park in LOS of the bridge and interdict it starting turn 1. Yes, they all die to Belgian AT fire in a couple turns, but their job is just to prevent the Belgian AE's from setting the DC on the first 2-3 turns. By that point the Germans have put multiple machinegun nests in the stone buildings south of the bridge that cover the bridge. The Belgian player has no way of preventing this from happening, no real way of dealing with them once they are in place, and I don't really see how the bridge can get blown with them in position.

Now ROAR has this scenario all the way up to 8-4; I'd still love to hear from those four Belgian victors. Two of those wins were in the last couple of months; chime in, fellows!
7......a thousand.........what's 992 off between friends :).

Also, the French do show up on turn 3 with some OBA, albeit scarce. There are ways to stomp those A/C.
 

John Fedoriw

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Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.
You aint really got 'em....you have a 3 AE squads with smoke (exponent of 3) and the 3 AFVs with smoke grenades (when they get there) + 3 elite Belgians with a smoke exponent of 1...that's it. So you want to get an AE mmc (and leader for his mod) setting the DCs on the bridge and have AE squads right next to the bridge (hiding behind a roadblock) tossing smoke on them while they do it. Unfortunately you need those AE squads to hold off whatever shows up at entry area 3.

I am playing this again and it looks like my opponent is not entering any units in entry area 3. That is a mistake IMHO. Those AE squads are gonna shift to the bridge. He also brought 2 ACs on in the south which may really help down there but aint interdicting the bridge (at the moment). If I am quick I may get a DC set.

This game feels really tense as the Belgians.
 
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