DM website update report #3: The CH Conundrum

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
I do occasionally buy original content CH items. In order to do that you must be as informed as possible to make sure it is not a repeat/reprint. CH does still produce original ASL content. Especially items developed by ATS players. The DM website is very valuable for identifying the repeat products from new original content. The analysis on DM is also useful in identifying if the original content is a good design, having credits for designer and play tests, or not. It is very buyer beware with CH products. DM website provides great research to help buyers avoid bad CH products and occasionally find original new ASL content. Even from CH.
These days, anybody buying anything from CH is running a big risk, because unless they got one within the past two years, I don't think they have a playtest team.
 

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
1,989
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llUkraine
So in other words,

CH is trying to rip me off. I know they are trying to rip me off. But, for some reason I’ll still buy from them so, I need someone to tell me which products to buy so I don’t get ripped off.

I wish I could build a company based off that business model. Are there any other companies that have survived this long using this model? Unbelievable.
It is actually completely staggering isn't it.

It's like buying half a dozen pairs of Reeboks which fell apart at the seams a week into owning them and continuing to buy them because you like the colours and they're bound to produce a decent pair one day.
 

RobZagnut

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Messages
8,814
Reaction score
1,378
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
These days, anybody buying anything from CH is running a big risk, because unless they got one within the past two years, I don't think they have a playtest team.
Past two years?!?!?

How about from Day 1? When I sent RT several scenarios from various designers to be playtested he put them in CH magazine with ZERO playtesting. The exact form as they were given to me. All of them.

When I asked him why he didn’t playtest any of the scenarios, he told me,

“If you throw enough shit up against the wall some of it will stick.”

That is the playtest philosophy that these guys are supporting.
 

RobZagnut

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Messages
8,814
Reaction score
1,378
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
Mark, if you want to truly punish CH for ripping off the Time on Target scenarios, not playtesting and renaming scenarios, then you should stop helping CH buyers navigate the minefield that is CH products.

By helping them find CH products to buy you are increasing CH’s sales. If these buyers get burned enough they will see the light and eventually quit buying.
 

Danno

Ost Front Fanatic
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
873
Location
Land of OZ
Country
llUnited States
So in other words,

CH is trying to rip me off. I know they are trying to rip me off. But, for some reason I’ll still buy from them so, I need someone to tell me which products to buy so I don’t get ripped off.

I wish I could build a company based off that business model. Are there any other companies that have survived this long using this model? Unbelievable.
All businesses are built on the practice charging more than the value of a product to make money. They're not running a daisy farm. The example I'll use is Ford Motor Company (but it applies to all car companies). The instant you drive the car of the lot you lose 20% or more of its value. The smarmy sales people sell it to you as a luxury item, or fancy new technology or a status symbol. But the truth is they are selling you an overpriced product. They're not selling anything at cost. They have also historically cut safety to make products cheaper, or developed planned obsolesce of products to wear out faster and make more money from spare parts and repairs. Sometime they make smart decisions, like assembly lines, and make more money being efficient. Sometimes they develop products everybody wants like the mustang. But it does not change the fact that they are a business and are trying to charge more then the product is worth. It is debatable that cars are good for society. But people want them and are willing to pay for them. Ford has been doing it for over 100 years.
 

Gunner Scott

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
13,737
Reaction score
2,669
Location
Chicago, IL
Country
llUnited States
I do buy CH stuff, not all of it mind you but stuff that interests me. So far I have really enjoyed the Stalingrad Rubble bounce series but each scenario I have played from there has been fun but had major editing problems or needed errata nonetheless my buddies and I still had a good time playing those scenarios, they were a cornucopia of Red Barricades inspired goodness.

I did purchase RT Leningrad series, who can pass up early war tin can action? My buddy and I plan to give Leni 1 and leni 2 a go in 2020.

I have bought a few other items from CH but the bottom line I am not going to go ape shit over people who dislike CH or RT and with his business practices and lack of quality control I am in no way going to defend him or CH.

As always: BUYER BEWARE

These days, anybody buying anything from CH is running a big risk, because unless they got one within the past two years, I don't think they have a playtest team.
 

Danno

Ost Front Fanatic
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
873
Location
Land of OZ
Country
llUnited States
These days, anybody buying anything from CH is running a big risk, because unless they got one within the past two years, I don't think they have a playtest team.
Agreed. CH relies on the designer to play test their products before submission. Some designers might spend the correct amount of time. Most of the CH designers now are from ATS. CH does not credit them in products and just ports them over to ASL without play tests. This is a huge quality issue.
 

RobZagnut

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Messages
8,814
Reaction score
1,378
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
All businesses are built on the practice charging more than the value of a product to make money. They're not running a daisy farm. The example I'll use is Ford Motor Company (but it applies to all car companies). The instant you drive the car of the lot you lose 20% or more of its value. The smarmy sales people sell it to you as a luxury item, or fancy new technology or a status symbol. But the truth is they are selling you an overpriced product. They're not selling anything at cost. They have also historically cut safety to make products cheaper, or developed planned obsolesce of products to wear out faster and make more money from spare parts and repairs. Sometime they make smart decisions, like assembly lines, and make more money being efficient. Sometimes they develop products everybody wants like the mustang. But it does not change the fact that they are a business and are trying to charge more then the product is worth. It is debatable that cars are good for society. But people want them and are willing to pay for them. Ford has been doing it for over 100 years.
Not quite the analogy you’re looking for.

What would people do if they went to the latest Star Wars movie or bought the latest John Grisham book and it was the exact same movie/book they had paid for 5 years earlier? Only the name was changed.

What do you think would happen to Disney or Grisham?
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
Past two years?!?!?

How about from Day 1? When I sent RT several scenarios from various designers to be playtested he put them in CH magazine with ZERO playtesting. The exact form as they were given to me. All of them.

When I asked him why he didn’t playtest any of the scenarios, he told me,

“If you throw enough shit up against the wall some of it will stick.”

That is the playtest philosophy that these guys are supporting.
As is well known, for a number of years, CH had a playtesting team organized by Dave Lamb. During that era, if anything good ever came out of CH, it was basically because of Dave and his Detroit friends. Not all CH products went to them during that era, but they worked on a number. But they eventually stopped and Dave is with BFP now.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
Mark, if you want to truly punish CH for ripping off the Time on Target scenarios, not playtesting and renaming scenarios, then you should stop helping CH buyers navigate the minefield that is CH products.

By helping them find CH products to buy you are increasing CH’s sales. If these buyers get burned enough they will see the light and eventually quit buying.
My goal with the World of ASL Compendium is to document the ASL world, not to punish anybody. I think I do an excellent job of documenting the many weaknesses of CH products; what people do with that information is up to them, not me. In any case, I always tell people who for some reason get an urge to buy a CH product that they should buy it on the second-hand market, not new and esp. not directly from CH.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
All businesses are built on the practice charging more than the value of a product to make money. They're not running a daisy farm. The example I'll use is Ford Motor Company (but it applies to all car companies). The instant you drive the car of the lot you lose 20% or more of its value. The smarmy sales people sell it to you as a luxury item, or fancy new technology or a status symbol. But the truth is they are selling you an overpriced product. They're not selling anything at cost. They have also historically cut safety to make products cheaper, or developed planned obsolesce of products to wear out faster and make more money from spare parts and repairs. Sometime they make smart decisions, like assembly lines, and make more money being efficient. Sometimes they develop products everybody wants like the mustang. But it does not change the fact that they are a business and are trying to charge more then the product is worth. It is debatable that cars are good for society. But people want them and are willing to pay for them. Ford has been doing it for over 100 years.
CH is not Ford.
 

Blackcloud6

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
6,968
Reaction score
674
Location
New Baltimore, MI
Country
llUnited States
As is well known, for a number of years, CH had a playtesting team organized by Dave Lamb. During that era, if anything good ever came out of CH, it was basically because of Dave and his Detroit friends. Not all CH products went to them during that era, but they worked on a number. But they eventually stopped and Dave is with BFP now.
Just to be clear, this playtesting of CH products by the Detroit area group was because I stopped hosting Thursday night gaming. Without the use of my basement, we couldn’t keep games set up up nor have a regular place to meet. I did it for six years and basically gave up a portion of my house to ASL. I wanted to do other gaming and needed the space and was a bit burned out on ASL. There was no other reason for the ending of CH playtesting by our group.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
Agreed. CH relies on the designer to play test their products before submission. Some designers might spend the correct amount of time. Most of the CH designers now are from ATS. CH does not credit them in products and just ports them over to ASL without play tests. This is a huge quality issue.
I am not aware that the main contributors, such as Mark Porterfield or Larry Winslow, do or arrange playtesting before submitting things.
 

Blackcloud6

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
6,968
Reaction score
674
Location
New Baltimore, MI
Country
llUnited States
Interesting. I had not seen that at any of the (few) Museumfests I've been to, or the (many more) Officefests.
As I recall, Larry is only a recent comer to MF. I know he has brought stuff he is working on for us to see, whether it is played , I honestly cannot be sure as I have not played against him and am usually focused on my own game.
 
Last edited:

Gordon

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
2,488
Reaction score
2,940
Country
llUnited States
Not quite the analogy you’re looking for.

What would people do if they went to the latest Star Wars movie or bought the latest John Grisham book and it was the exact same movie/book they had paid for 5 years earlier? Only the name was changed.

What do you think would happen to Disney or Grisham?
That's a vast majority of the Hollywood business model with all the remakes/reboots. ;) Which is why I don't go to that many movies anymore.
 
Top