Diverse Round 2

Palantir

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Well DUH! :nuts:

I had assumed RW had already tried that first. :p

But just in case... hey Redwolf contact Cornolio.... :whist:
:laugh:
 

Redwolf

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I guess I'll dig through some spam filters tomorrow. You didn't get a bounce back, right?
 

Michael Dorosh

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Yes, sir, all valid points...


It just seems that extreme results happen from extreme behavior... And so, it seems to me, the most skewing of the overall tournament outcome comes from a small number extreme results probably caused by extreme behavior... In the name of being fair to the more competent and attentive players, it might produce better tournament results to eliminate the extremes from the scoring system, such as:
Scoring:
Total or Major victory = 13
Tactical victory = 11
Minor victory = 9
Draw = 7
Minor loss = 5
Tactical loss = 3
Total or Major loss = 1


or this might be even better:
Scoring:
Total or Major victory = 6
Tactical victory = 5
Minor victory = 4
Draw = 3
Minor loss = 2
Tactical loss = 1
Total or Major loss = 0


BTW - I don't necessarily mean to say that we should adopt this suggestion for this tournament (unless a groundswell of support occurs, of course!)
Maybe we can stop trying to "fix" things that aren't broken.

Or label things that don't need labelling.

And as for my "extreme" behaviour, if you are referring to me, perhaps wait for the AAR before you comment on it. ;) Or just read jdsu's comments, which accurately summed up the situation in our game.
 

BigAlMoho

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Maybe we can stop trying to "fix" things that aren't broken.

Or label things that don't need labelling.

And as for my "extreme" behaviour, if you are referring to me, perhaps wait for the AAR before you comment on it. ;) Or just read jdsu's comments, which accurately summed up the situation in our game.
All that aside, what did you think of the hypothetical scoring system itself? (I was just looking for a bit of discussion...)
 

Michael Dorosh

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All that aside, what did you think of the hypothetical scoring system itself? (I was just looking for a bit of discussion...)
I think the current one is better, honestly. The way these scenarios are set up, they encourage middle-of-the-road play anyhow, so I doubt we'll see a lot of scores at the opposite ends of the pole, and if we do, I would attribute it to either skill or foolhardiness, or both. In my game with jdsu, I gambled on a high-risk strategy, and he countered with solid tactics and knowledge of the game system. It wasn't luck that got him 95, so he deserved the 95 points, and consequently, the 13.

If one wanted to get ridiculous they could introduce Bayesian curves to the scores just to ensure no one without a math degree knew what was going on.

I wouldn't encourage much discussion on this point until after the tournament in any event; seems rude given the amount of work that has gone into it. Like discussing who your favourite caterers are - while sitting at the table of a dinner party hosted by your best friend. :)
 

BigAlMoho

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I think the current one is better, honestly. The way these scenarios are set up, they encourage middle-of-the-road play anyhow, so I doubt we'll see a lot of scores at the opposite ends of the pole, and if we do, I would attribute it to either skill or foolhardiness, or both. In my game with jdsu, I gambled on a high-risk strategy, and he countered with solid tactics and knowledge of the game system. It wasn't luck that got him 95, so he deserved the 95 points, and consequently, the 13.

If one wanted to get ridiculous they could introduce Bayesian curves to the scores just to ensure no one without a math degree knew what was going on.

I wouldn't encourage much discussion on this point until after the tournament in any event; seems rude given the amount of work that has gone into it. Like discussing who your favourite caterers are - while sitting at the table of a dinner party hosted by your best friend. :)
In a tournament, where it is reasonable to expect that everyone is trying to do his best, it seems obvious that anyone taking extreme action (such as giving up or playing foolhardy) is not trying to do his best... The best moderator can be forgiven for not anticipating the extremes and their tendency to skew the results... I agree, it wasn't luck that got him the 95: it was his skill combined with his opponents extreme behavior that got him the 95 instead of an 85 or a 75 etc. (BTW he gets 15 points - not 13)

No comment on the last two lines.
 

Michael Dorosh

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In a tournament, where it is reasonable to expect that everyone is trying to do his best, it seems obvious that anyone taking extreme action (such as giving up or playing foolhardy) is not trying to do his best... .
Disagree completely. Going for a 100 percent win is "best". As opposed to hoping for a dull stalemate.
 

Quellist

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Disagree completely. Going for a 100 percent win is "best". As opposed to hoping for a dull stalemate.
Not if your objective is to win the tourney. As you said above the scenarios encourage middle of the road play so if you go for a low probability option with
gameplay that is "unencouraged" by the scenario it should lead to lower expected returns. Obviously this is disregarding the dull vs fun part of a stalemate vs a total loss? ;)
 
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MeatEtr

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I can just hear it now, "Well if it wasn't for Dorosh taking his big gamble, we could of won that tourney!". :p
 

Quellist

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You do better at winning the tourney with a 95 score than a 65. :)
Heh. That is true, but if you only get that 95/05 victory 1 in 3 and get 05/95 for the other 2 in 3 you will still do worse, with high probability, over a 4 round tourney.
 

Palantir

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Staying out of this.

Of course the point to these scenarios is that they are geared to "the middle" with everything being "balanced overall." It's the small details of individual units & your tactics that have to make the difference.

Detailed discussions of Rd2 are just waiting for Redwolf & Cornolio to finish... :whist:

{You have to admit you don't usually see this mixture of units in your average QB / scenario. If you want to see a really unique scenario setting you have to check out my AK “KM-Desert Chaos.” I guarantee you have never seen one like it before.}


So on to round 3... :D
 
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BigAlMoho

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Then there is the reality of what is being simulated:
If a commander took extreme risks for the thrill of it or for any reason short of genuine desperation he would be sacked (or shot!) and so participants in a tourney like this have a reasonable expectation that the others will stay "in character" while competing and not resort to gamey and unrealistic tactics...

Palantir is an excellent caterer/host and has put on a fine party! As for me, this is my first tournament in spite of hundreds of games played and I can't help wondering about the quirks and anomalies that lower my level of immersion in the event...
 

Palantir

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Redwolf- if you can not get Cornolio's emails but can get mine I can be a go between, he can send them to me and I'll forward them to you.
Let me know.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Then there is the reality of what is being simulated:
If a commander took extreme risks for the thrill of it or for any reason short of genuine desperation he would be sacked (or shot!) and so participants in a tourney like this have a reasonable expectation that the others will stay "in character" while competing and not resort to gamey and unrealistic tactics...
You mean like when Rommel mounted canvas and wood on Kübelwagens as soon as he arrived in Libya and called them tanks? Please note, I am not comparing myself to Rommel. I also don't think he was half as good as people seem to think he was. But he was a high-stakes player.

I am pretty sure there is a reason that canvas and wood tanks are not in CM:AK - i.e. they are "gamey and unrealistic" but for some reason, Rommel - the real Rommel - used them anyway. :laugh:

Palantir is an excellent caterer/host and has put on a fine party! As for me, this is my first tournament in spite of hundreds of games played and I can't help wondering about the quirks and anomalies that lower my level of immersion in the event...
You may wish to reserve judgement until you've read an AAR, or at least glimpsed in the scenario you're suggesting has "lowered your immersion". Read my AAR, and you'll see I approached the battle in a perfectly sensible manner.

I suppose if I wanted to holler, I could note my opponent used a Tank Hunter team to do recon on one of my occupied houses. Was that gamey, or was he wisely using the resources at his disposal? I would call it the latter. Was especially beautiful to see it die the cringing, horrifying death it deserved when it revealed a squad of infantry. You will not see me complaining on the forum - or anywhere else - about his conduct. jdsu played a good game, made excellent use of the forces at his disposal, and was gentlemanly enough to discuss the game in a friendly debrief afterwards.

Most importantly, though, I had fun playing and think I offered a challenge, though as he indicated, it was only in doubt for part of the game. I'm fine with that. You know what? My round 1 match up was only in doubt for part of it as well. You know how I approached it? Far more conventionally, and I think we both knew the jig was up after the tank-vs.-tank battle resolved in my favour, and it was a matter of time.

So honestly - what's the difference? The suspense level as far as outcome was the same, even if the overall level of result was not.
 

BigAlMoho

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You mean like when Rommel mounted canvas and wood on Kübelwagens as soon as he arrived in Libya and called them tanks? Please note, I am not comparing myself to Rommel. I also don't think he was half as good as people seem to think he was. But he was a high-stakes player.

I am pretty sure there is a reason that canvas and wood tanks are not in CM:AK - i.e. they are "gamey and unrealistic" but for some reason, Rommel - the real Rommel - used them anyway. :laugh:



You may wish to reserve judgement until you've read an AAR, or at least glimpsed in the scenario you're suggesting has "lowered your immersion". Read my AAR, and you'll see I approached the battle in a perfectly sensible manner.

I suppose if I wanted to holler, I could note my opponent used a Tank Hunter team to do recon on one of my occupied houses. Was that gamey, or was he wisely using the resources at his disposal? I would call it the latter. Was especially beautiful to see it die the cringing, horrifying death it deserved when it revealed a squad of infantry. You will not see me complaining on the forum - or anywhere else - about his conduct. jdsu played a good game, made excellent use of the forces at his disposal, and was gentlemanly enough to discuss the game in a friendly debrief afterwards.

Most importantly, though, I had fun playing and think I offered a challenge, though as he indicated, it was only in doubt for part of the game. I'm fine with that. You know what? My round 1 match up was only in doubt for part of it as well. You know how I approached it? Far more conventionally, and I think we both knew the jig was up after the tank-vs.-tank battle resolved in my favour, and it was a matter of time.

So honestly - what's the difference? The suspense level as far as outcome was the same, even if the overall level of result was not.
Well, like I said, first tourney and I raised some questions for discussion and now I have much to ponder...
 
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