Distant Guns 1.5 Gunnery Test video

Lempereur1

Kapellmeister
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
925
Reaction score
0
Location
East Coast
Country
llUnited States
Gamers:

Norm has prepared a special gunnery accuracy & splash patter video showing a test he ran a couple of weeks ago.

It is a special debug environment that cannot be reproduced in a retal build. PLease do not ask us for this feature, as it can only be setup by hand in the debug compiler by directlymanipulating thins like removing reload times etc.

The test fires 300 or so rounds, one after the other, with no reload delay.
This represents a single ship firing that many rounds, so that the rsults can be seen visually as splashes in the water.

It represents the gunnery slider set at 100. This delivers the same results it hits as DG 1.0 gunnery did.

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/gunnery_test_0001.wmv

DOes this disprove opinions as to how the accuracy and splash pattern is occuring?

You be the judge.

 

Daedalus

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
698
Reaction score
0
Location
Fort Knox Ky
This film shows about the average hit and hit rate for shells fired . I had the test papers at one time. Let me see if I still have them.
Thanks for putting up this test.


I know one thing , I would not want to be on the wrong end of those shells. :)
 

ExMachina

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
Location
Tennessee
now that is really cool. thanks for posting it.

could you please clarify how this oblong pattern corresponds to a pattern we might see with continually adjusting fire?

also, why is there such a spread with what i presume must be a single fire control solution?
 

Daedalus

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
698
Reaction score
0
Location
Fort Knox Ky
One thing is you have to see that they are on a moving ship and firing for range.
No shot will be the same as you gun is always moving.
The oblong shape is by the ranging. Short ,long adjustments to find the target center.
Also the firing ship has to adjust for the movement of the target ship.
If there was more time you would see the shell hit pattern move with the target ship.
As I am sure that you know that.
But that is how the pattern comes about is the ranging and adjustment shots.
It's just in this film we get to see it all at once.
 

alexsmith

Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
92
Reaction score
0
Location
in a village
Country
llRussia
Usually I do not download video due to high cost of traffic - but for that I made an exclusion. It worth it! Thank you, very conclusive. Although that's just mean - nothing would be improved and for me that's pitty :)
 

Algy

Recruit
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Location
London
Country
ll
I thank you for sharing the video with us, the shape of the splash pattern was beautifully demonstrated.

However, the test is based on the 'Tsushima Engaged' scenario when the opening range between Oslyabya and the target ship is in excess of 10,000 yds. In an age when opening fire at over 6,000 yards was considered to be a waste of time I think that a hit rate of 5 in 300 is too high.

The test had 'gunnery accuracy' set at 100 (the default?). Elsewhere in this forum Bullethead says that 20 is more realistic. If the test was rerun at an accuracy of 20 and a range of 10,000 yards surely the number of hits would tend to zero which would be much more realistic.
 

rgreat

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
1,003
Reaction score
0
Location
Moscow
Country
llRussia

DOes this disprove opinions as to how the accuracy and splash pattern is occuring?

You be the judge.
Well, in my opinion pattern must be 1.5 times more thin while a bit longer.

Like this shape


Nice video. Thanks.
 
Last edited:

PepsiCan

Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
783
Reaction score
0
Location
Larnaka
Country
ll
That's why you have the option to tweak the hit ration :)

I think the test was more to demonstrate the splash pattern than to show hit ratios,
 

Algy

Recruit
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Location
London
Country
ll
Persons (like me) who are evaluating the DG 1.5 demo are unable to change the default 'gunnery accuracy' which is locked at the default setting (100?).

I am suggesting that in the DG 1.5 demo hits are being achieved at WW1 ranges rather than RJW ranges resulting in distortion of game tactics and giving a false impression to potential customers of SES.

If the default was changed in the demo (to 20?) then things would be much improved.
 

ExMachina

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
Location
Tennessee
One thing is you have to see that they are on a moving ship and firing for range.
No shot will be the same as you gun is always moving.
but these are all fired w/in several seconds of each other, right? so it's, more or less, one big salvo.

The oblong shape is by the ranging. Short ,long adjustments to find the target center.
that's my question, really--why does this LOOK like adjusting fire when it's really just one, giant salvo?

how can the AI "adjust" before the first shot splashes?
 

Daedalus

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
698
Reaction score
0
Location
Fort Knox Ky
Gun accuracy In 1905 was not far behind WWI. Quite a few of the gun and ships where in use in WWI from the 1890 through 1920.
A few ships had newer arms but quite a range where using the same gun types of 05.
What had improved some where the optics for ranging and the gunnery tables.
In this they where able to get better numbers at longer range.
But the tables for the 05 era where not far off and the Ranging sights of that time where quite good!
So the test that was shown is relative for both games.
One of the main improvements for WWI was the load times of the guns and the cordite that was used. Now it can be said that the British type cordite was quite a bit more volatile as was the Japanese . As it was based on the British and Italian types.

And the hit rate was just about on. I have a paper somewhere that I compiled in Engineering on this , and I can say that after going through the Naval records I was surprised at how many shells where shot before any hits where achieved. I think the average was around xxx with 500 shots. But this is an average as each gun was a little different from each type. Some of the larger guns where at around xxx for the 500 shot range. And I think the test was at 10 Km and was done in 1920 as it set the standard for the U.S for the next 40 years. But I will have to do some research on this as it has been more than a few years sense I did this work. So that mean the number could be a little off, but not enough to really make a change.

And you can see this in the BC's as they where designed as a raider or a hit and run fighting ship, in other words they where not to be used in a slug fest by them selves.
As you will see or have seen that they run low quickly on large caliber shells.

One thing I did learn was the tactic of closing to a closer range as they did not want a plunging shot to hit the ship as it was greatly more devastating, and did massive damage ie the Hood, yes I know it was WWII but to the same affect. This was a tactic that was use by most British ship Captains at that time.
But when you look at the ways different country's looked at how they applied there armor, then you see the styles of fighting that the ships where used.
I myself find this fascinating on the ships of the time and the Armor used and how it was used and worked.
The issues with the hardening of the shells and how most broke up on impact. And the different types of fusing for types of armor they where trying to penetrate.
Like the Japanese of the 05 era , they use shells that exploded on impact as they thought it would do more damage than the AP rounds. So they shot a mix of types in a battle, Anyway I could go on for hours on this.
If you do some research work like SES did you will see that they are really close to what was and is. And there is no perfect.

Ok I am gong to have to get the tables and post for gun type and so forth, as it was pointed out to me that the hit rate was way to high. And Algy was right. The numbers I had down where from a 105mm gun at 2000 m.
That is like a rifle shot at a rabbit in the wood for this gun.
Let me do this right so I will not start a mess. I over simplified what I was posting and out of context.
Thank for bringing this up for me as I was not awake enough and , well you saw the outcome. Anyway that is why I xed them out.
Now to find my paper work and get it straight up so all can understand without me making an idiot out of me.
As the saying goes it takes an Engineer to really mess things up! :)
 
Last edited:

Algy

Recruit
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Location
London
Country
ll
Daedalus, I do not understand how you can say that SES are really close to your own findings when you say that a real life 1920's test at 10km gave 1.02 hits in 500 shots (0.2% hit rate) whereas SES scores 5 hits in 300 shots at a similar range (1.6% hit rate). This means that the SES simulated gunnery for 1905 is 8 times more accurate than gunnery under test conditions in 1920!
I am more convinced than ever that something is wrong!
 

Daedalus

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
698
Reaction score
0
Location
Fort Knox Ky
No , I put the numbers down wrong. I will find the papers on this and post them , I'll try today. there are about 10 classes of hit rates depending on type and range. I just chose some of the larger ones. When you see the table you will see what I mean and what is up on this.
What I have done is made it over simplified and it does not average out the numbers and hit rate and range. The one class that I posted was from a 105mm gun at 2000 M , yes you can get great hits from that.
I just did not think out what I was posting and I am sorry for that and I will get it fixed. I know these number are online as in the Naval records sections of sites.
As it is I will have to post all the ranging and types and so forth so it will be correct.
This was a screw up on my part. And I will get it fixed.
 

MoToM

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
175
Reaction score
0
Location
Wales
Country
ll
Daedalus, I do not understand how you can say that SES are really close to your own findings when you say that a real life 1920's test at 10km gave 1.02 hits in 500 shots (0.2% hit rate) whereas SES scores 5 hits in 300 shots at a similar range (1.6% hit rate). This means that the SES simulated gunnery for 1905 is 8 times more accurate than gunnery under test conditions in 1920!
I am more convinced than ever that something is wrong!
But this is with the gunnery slider maxed. On a more realistic setting, admittedly unavailable in trial, accuracy would likely be nearer to what you are expecting.
 

PepsiCan

Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
783
Reaction score
0
Location
Larnaka
Country
ll
but these are all fired w/in several seconds of each other, right? so it's, more or less, one big salvo.



that's my question, really--why does this LOOK like adjusting fire when it's really just one, giant salvo?

how can the AI "adjust" before the first shot splashes?
Welcome to the age of computing. In the retail game, there is a "sleep" between every salvo. What Jim explained earlier is that the "sleep" was removed. So, what you get is not a giant salvo, but the computer calculating a series of very rapidly fired salvos.

Your CPU can do dozens of millions of calcs per second. So, the result looks like one salvo, but in fact there are hundreds of separate ones.
 
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
249
Reaction score
2
Location
Maryland
I think that this is supposed to show initial variation, without adjustments.
You can't make any adjustments because all the shots are fired before any of them hit (or rather miss in 295 out of 300 cases).

After all, if you could always hit the same exact spot every time you fired, you'd have solved half the problem. The other half being, where will the right spot be when the shell gets there?

Hmm, I was playing my new campaign at Chemulpo and the Japanese hit Varyag at over 11,000m with gunnery accuracy set to 20. Once, but then I don't think they fired nearly so many rounds, and definitely not so fast!

BTW, is that the accepted setting for historical accuracy? So far, it seems to feel right, but the default was 100.
 

Daedalus

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
698
Reaction score
0
Location
Fort Knox Ky
I think that this is supposed to show initial variation, without adjustments.
You can't make any adjustments because all the shots are fired before any of them hit (or rather miss in 295 out of 300 cases).

After all, if you could always hit the same exact spot every time you fired, you'd have solved half the problem. The other half being, where will the right spot be when the shell gets there?

Hmm, I was playing my new campaign at Chemulpo and the Japanese hit Varyag at over 11,000m with gunnery accuracy set to 20. Once, but then I don't think they fired nearly so many rounds, and definitely not so fast!

BTW, is that the accepted setting for historical accuracy? So far, it seems to feel right, but the default was 100.
I do not know about the setting to 20, we will have to let Bullethead answer this one. I think he did a post on this so you might look. But I do not know what the number was he stated.
 

ExMachina

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
Location
Tennessee
Welcome to the age of computing. In the retail game, there is a "sleep" between every salvo. What Jim explained earlier is that the "sleep" was removed. So, what you get is not a giant salvo, but the computer calculating a series of very rapidly fired salvos.

Your CPU can do dozens of millions of calcs per second. So, the result looks like one salvo, but in fact there are hundreds of separate ones.
thanks. that sort of makes sense...but it still really doesn't answer why there is such a spread. i'd expect such a computer-predictive approach to zero in better, especially since (in the milliseconds that it takes to calculate all these shots) the target essentially hasn't moved at all. why would the AI gunner--once he gets a hit, continue to adjust off of the target?
 
Top