DINANT

The Purist

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,187
Reaction score
333
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
1. The infantry group that starts Have to move quickly down through the Sand heap down the south reentrant. The 5 squads that start down along the river can’t hold the Germans without help.
This took me by surprise as well. According to the Initial Scenario Rules the French simply set up west of the river.
 

Den589

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
143
Reaction score
105
Location
Waterford, MI
Country
llUnited States
Last question (I sorta promise!), Does 4.615 come into play at all for foxholes in the initial scenario? In other words can the French buy foxholes and place them in the backfield preparing for the long haul/exit portion of the CG without putting a MMC in the backfield with them per 4.615 or conversely can the German buy FPP for foxholes and put them in LOS of & within 6 hexes of French troops.

According to 4.615 you can't do this on a normal day, but 4.615 also says "The Initial Scenario provides setup instructions for the scenario...", that seems to imply that you can setup East of the Meuse for the French or West of the Meuse for the German; disregarding the rest of 4.615 for roadblocks and foxholes?
 

The Purist

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,187
Reaction score
333
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
I have jotted down a few questions either for the playtesters or other knowledgeable types regarding a few rules. Actually, some of these will be more in the line clarifications or confirmations that my understanding of the rules is correct.

The first couple have to do with the link between the Initial Scenario Special Rules and Refit Phase:

1) Both sides may HIP their Forward Observers as per I.6 of the CG. However, during the refit phase all HIP units "may" be placed on the map under ? counters. As HIP may not be purchased as part of the FPP RGs this would mean all FOs placed on the map at the end of 13 May Morning could not begin 13 May Afternoon, or later scenarios, with HIP status (other than HIP allowed by Night Rules E1 and as modified by CG4.4, so,... none).

Is this understanding correct?

More complicated...

2) As per I.4 the French may HIP 3 squad-equivalents and the SMC/SW stacked with them. They may also HIP their Trenches and foxholes which are only revealed as per E1.16 (use of DR modifiers). Finally, ordnance that sets up in Concealment terrain would also set up HIP as per the normal rules.

Now,... during the Refit Phase rule 4.6071 (Set Up Area Determination) states in the last sentence of the paragraph that "HIP units may be placed on board under a concealment counter as part of this step".

The bold/underline/italics are mine.

The question is whether HIP units could retain their HIP status for the next CG Date by not revealing themselves during this step?

The reasoning here is that a both sides may wish to protect the HIP status of a FO or the French may not want to reveal the locations of Fortifications, Guns or HIP MMC/SMC/SW.

Continuing on from the above and as per 4.615 (Set Up) "...otherwise, units and fortifications remain on the map in the Location and state (again, Bold/Italics are mine) they were in at the end of the previous CG Scenario except as altered by the RePh".

To me this means that since there is no 'relocation' step to shift units within a set up area, the hex a unit was in at the end of the previous scenario is the same hex the unit must begin the new scenario in. If correct, I am thinking that HIP units (including FO for both sides and French Trench, Foxholes, MMC/SMC/SW and Guns) could retain HIP status from one CG Scenario to the next (however difficult such a feat might be).

Correct?
 
Last edited:

The Purist

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,187
Reaction score
333
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
Edit: Cleaned up the English a bit so the responses make more sense. The original bits were,... Yeeeesh!! 🤪

Last question (I sorta promise!), Does 4.615 come into play at all for foxholes in the initial scenario? In other words can the French buy foxholes and place them in the backfield preparing for the long haul/exit portion of the CG without putting a MMC in the backfield with them per 4.615...
Note that the French get free foxholes if set up in suitable terrain (in or out of LOS) as per the set up conditions and these are only revealed as per E1.16 and I.4. Thus it appears you would only need MMCs for FHs purchased to be placed in non-concealment terrain and as per 4.615. At the same time It appears that any roadblocks purchased would be placed on the Map even in the Initial Scenario as per 4.615 (not HIP until in LOS as normally done) since I.4 does not apply.

... conversely can the German buy FPP for foxholes and put them in LOS of & within 6 hexes of French troops.
If set up in concealment terrain the Germans would get free FHs as well. As above, I believe that purchased foxholes would only be necessary for non-concealment terrain and then 4.615 would apply.


According to 4.615 you can't do this on a normal day, but 4.615 also says "The Initial Scenario provides setup instructions for the scenario...", that seems to imply that you can setup East of the Meuse for the French or West of the Meuse for the German; disregarding the rest of 4.615 for roadblocks and foxholes?
I read it as the French settting up west of the Meuse, the Germans east of the river. I don't see where 4.5 or 4.615 changes this? :unsure:
 
Last edited:

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
Last question (I sorta promise!), Does 4.615 come into play at all for foxholes in the initial scenario? In other words can the French buy foxholes and place them in the backfield preparing for the long haul/exit portion of the CG without putting a MMC in the backfield with them per 4.615 or conversely can the German buy FPP for foxholes and put them in LOS of & within 6 hexes of French troops.

According to 4.615 you can't do this on a normal day, but 4.615 also says "The Initial Scenario provides setup instructions for the scenario...", that seems to imply that you can setup East of the Meuse for the French or West of the Meuse for the German; disregarding the rest of 4.615 for roadblocks and foxholes?
The answer to initial scenario setup is so long as they are within your front lines, you may place the Foxholes in any suitable(read that legal) terrain.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
I have jotted down a few questions either for the playtesters or other knowledgeable types regarding a few rules. Actually, some of these will be more in the line clarifications or confirmations that my understanding of the rules is correct.

The first few have to do with the link between the Initial Scenario Special Rules and Refit Phase:

1) Both sides may HIP they Forward Observers as I.6 of the CG. However, during the refit phase all HIP units "may" be placed on the map under ? counters. As HIP may not be purchased as part of the FPP RGs this would mean all FOs placed on the map at the end of 13 May Morning could not begin 13 May Afternoon, or later scenarios, with HIP status (other than HIP allowed by Night Rules E1 and as modified by CG4.4).

Is this understanding correct?

More complicated...

2) As per I.4 the French may HIP 3 squad-equivalents and the SMC/SW stacked with them. They may also HIP their Trenches and foxholes which are only revealed as per E1.16 (use of DR modifiers). Finally, ordnance that sets up in Concealment terrain would also set up HIP as per the normal rules.

Now,... during the Refit Phase 4.6071 at the end of 13 May Morning CG Scenario regarding Set Up Area Determination it states in the last sentence of the paragraph that "HIP units may be placed on board under a concealment counter as part of this step".

The bold/underline/italics are mine.

The question is whether HIP units could retain their HIP status for the next CG Date by not revealing themselves during this step?

The reasoning here is that a either side may wish to protect the HIP status of a FO or the French may not want to reveal the locations of Fortifications, Guns or HIP MMC/SMC/SW.

Continuing on from the above and as per 4.615 (Set Up) "...otherwise, units and fortifications remain on the map in the Location and state (again, Bold/Italics are mine) they were in at the end of the previous CG Scenario except as altered by the RePh".

To me this means that since there is no 'relocation' step to shift units around or the ability to place units in new hexes even within a set up area (of whatever size), the hex a unit was in at the end of the previous scenario is the same hex the unit must begin the new scenario in. If correct, I am thinking that HIP units (including FO for both sides and French Trench, Foxholes, MMC/SMC/SW and Guns) could retain HIP status from one CG Scenario to the next (however difficult such a feat might be).

Correct?
#1 incorrect. So long as they do not reveal themselves voluntarily, say to apply FP to interdict a German route off board, the HIP units stay HIP unless otherwise revealed. The wife has the computer after me having it all day for work, so answering these one at a time on my cell phone.
Sorry.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
I have jotted down a few questions either for the playtesters or other knowledgeable types regarding a few rules. Actually, some of these will be more in the line clarifications or confirmations that my understanding of the rules is correct.

The first few have to do with the link between the Initial Scenario Special Rules and Refit Phase:

1) Both sides may HIP they Forward Observers as I.6 of the CG. However, during the refit phase all HIP units "may" be placed on the map under ? counters. As HIP may not be purchased as part of the FPP RGs this would mean all FOs placed on the map at the end of 13 May Morning could not begin 13 May Afternoon, or later scenarios, with HIP status (other than HIP allowed by Night Rules E1 and as modified by CG4.4).

Is this understanding correct?

More complicated...

2) As per I.4 the French may HIP 3 squad-equivalents and the SMC/SW stacked with them. They may also HIP their Trenches and foxholes which are only revealed as per E1.16 (use of DR modifiers). Finally, ordnance that sets up in Concealment terrain would also set up HIP as per the normal rules.

Now,... during the Refit Phase 4.6071 at the end of 13 May Morning CG Scenario regarding Set Up Area Determination it states in the last sentence of the paragraph that "HIP units may be placed on board under a concealment counter as part of this step".

The bold/underline/italics are mine.

The question is whether HIP units could retain their HIP status for the next CG Date by not revealing themselves during this step?

The reasoning here is that a either side may wish to protect the HIP status of a FO or the French may not want to reveal the locations of Fortifications, Guns or HIP MMC/SMC/SW.

Continuing on from the above and as per 4.615 (Set Up) "...otherwise, units and fortifications remain on the map in the Location and state (again, Bold/Italics are mine) they were in at the end of the previous CG Scenario except as altered by the RePh".

To me this means that since there is no 'relocation' step to shift units around or the ability to place units in new hexes even within a set up area (of whatever size), the hex a unit was in at the end of the previous scenario is the same hex the unit must begin the new scenario in. If correct, I am thinking that HIP units (including FO for both sides and French Trench, Foxholes, MMC/SMC/SW and Guns) could retain HIP status from one CG Scenario to the next (however difficult such a feat might be).

Correct?
#2 Correct and completely intentional. The flow of the CG, due to each date only being a few hours, lends to very small lulls in the fighting, represented by the refit phase. The CG plays more like one large scenario than a standard CG for that reason and that is completely intentional.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
Edit: Cleaned up the English a bit so the responses make more sense. The original bits were,... Yeeeesh!! 🤪



Note that the French get free foxholes if set up in concealment terrain (in or out of LOS) as per the set up conditions and these are only revealed as per E1.16 and I.4. Thus it appears you would only need MMCs for FHs purchased to be placed in non-concealment terrain and as per 4.615. At the same time It appears that any roadblocks purchased would be placed on the Map even in the Initial Scenario as per 4.615 (not HIP until in LOS as normally done) since I.4 does not apply.



If set up in concealment terrain the Germans would get free FHs as well. As above, I believe that purchased foxholes would only be necessary for non-concealment terrain and then 4.615 would apply.




I read it as the French settting up west of the Meuse, the Germans east of the river. I don't see where 4.5 or 4.615 changes this? :unsure:
See my answer on that one above. Thanks for the questions guys.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
I have the opposite question. I've drawn the Germans, What to buy with the 30CPP? Has anybody who has PT'd or started this CG bought pontoon sections the first day/scenario.......all the thoughts I have is that they are going to be easy pickings for the French mortars, MG's and INF; so don't buy them until you've got a foothold across the river using boats, but you've got to start building at some point and buying them the first scenario will allow you to get them into position for quick building scenario #2.

So I guess the question is do you buy any pontoon sections that first day?
My take is the polar opposite from Dan. The key here is the supply rule. This is one of the key conundrums for the German player. You have limited numbers of AE, the only guys who build bridges and limited numbers of bridges and limited amount of time to get this done due to supply constraints.

I say buy them, stage them, but commit them sparingly and when/where you feel secure in doing this. Terrain analysis, not only of your entry areas, but of the best defensive terrain for the French are part of this puzzle. You don't need a bridge done that first date, but you had best be done with one by the second or the boys on the west side will be throwing rocks. :)
There are very real challenges for both sides. The French holding out for three dates with 4 companies of sub-par infantry, a company of wind up toys and an OBA that steadily decreases in value is their problem.

It is designed for equal opportunity whining. But get them in position to take advantage of opportunities, just don't commit it all at once. Very cat/mouse.
 
Last edited:

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
Per 4.609 "...The French player will purchase RG for the CG Date following the one about to be played and can never retain more than 2 CPP unused for the next RePh; any excess French CPP over 2 are lost. …" So you have to spend 18 or else you lose them.
Yes. Only 2 may be carried forward. These 2 rules essentially are there to ape the lack of strategic flexibility to react as quickly to changing circumstances compared to their foe.
 

David Reinking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,554
Reaction score
121
Location
Leander, TX
Country
llUnited States
My take is the polar opposite from Dan. The key here is the supply rule. This is one of the key conundrums for the German player. You have limited numbers of AE, the only guys who build bridges and limited numbers of bridges and limited amount of time to get this done to supply constraints.

I say buy them, stage them, but commit them sparingly and when/where you feel secure in doing this. Terrain analysis, not only of your entry areas, but of the best defensive terrain for the French are part of this puzzle. You don't need a bridge done that first date, but you had best be done with one by the second or the boys on the west side will be throwing rocks. :)
There are very real challenges for both sides. The French holding out for three dates with 4 companies of sub-par infantry, a company of wind up toys and an OBA that steadily decreases in value is their problem.

It is designed for equal opportunity whining. But get them in position to take advantage of opportunities, just don't commit it all at once. Very cat/mouse.
Any Energizer Bunnies in that company of wind-up toys?
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
This gets you my nomination for the Spuddy Award. What does the jury say?

von Marwitz
Definitely Spuddy worthy. If nothing else he gets to be a team member on the DPW crew I want the mayor to create, to turn all the manhole covers the same way. ;-)
 

The Purist

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,187
Reaction score
333
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
The answer to initial scenario setup is so long as they are within your front lines, you may place the Foxholes in any suitable(read that legal) terrain.
Thanks for the response.

I think I understand. 💡 There is no real need for the French to purchase Entrenchments in the Initial Scenario as per DN4.5 set up. If I placed a squad in C13 and two more in B28 they would both start with free Foxholes based on how many squads are in the hex (1S FH in C13 and 2S FH in B28). However, the 1S FH in C13 Orchard would only be revealed via E1.16 while the 2S FH in B28 would be revealed when an enemy unit had LOS to the Hex (Case H on the concealment loss table).

The Germans, on the other hand, do not get free Entrenchments similar to the French. They would have to purchase Foxholes and deploy them as per 4.615 (more than 6 hexes away and out of LOS of a French unit). Not much point.
 
Last edited:

The Purist

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,187
Reaction score
333
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
This next question is only because I have not had to deal with railways and pillboxes since about 2007 in RB (and there are differences now).

B32.11 and B32.12 state that a GlRR and EmRR are functionally the same as paved roads (B3) with a few noted exceptions. B30 states a Pillbox can be placed on "any" Road (but not bridges). Unless I am mistaken this means the French pillboxes could be set up on either GlRR or EmRR.

That said, as there is no exception given to B27.1 a Trench could not be placed in a GlRR or EmRR (effectively a paved road) with a pillbox to create a Bunker (B30.8)

(Either way,....I still haven't figured out what to do with the beasties.)

Which leads me to the Bunker rule and definition of "Accessible" in this case. I checked the latest Perry Sez (Mar 2020) but I didn't find what I was looking for.

Assume a Pillbox is in hex DNJJ44, and a Trench is in DNII45. According to the B30.8 text …"A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a Bunker."

The "and/or" here could trip one up a bit but if you read the sentence without the "and" it would read... "A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a Bunker."

As JJ44 is "Accessible" to II45, is the Pillbox in DNJJ44 therefore a Bunker?

(I should know this and I think the answer is yes but... 🤔)
 
Last edited:

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,174
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
You're correct regarding placement of the PB is legal on the RR. Will have to pull up the map tomorrow to check on the second part of the question.
Thanks.
 
Top