DINANT

hongkongwargamer

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I think I'm one of these people, although I won't claim to speak for everybody you have in mind.

I totally agree with your post upstream that the responsibility is with the buyer if the product doesn't live up to their expectations, especially in the age of the internet, when product images and reviews abound!

But I think it is worth pointing out that for years (decades?) MMP has had a really sterling reputation for customer service. You didn't NEED to carefully pore over contents of the module you wanted to buy and cross-reference them with the contents of previous editions to figure out whether you were getting everything. You could always rely on MMP that if they made any changes to the contents of the module, all the changes would be customer-friendly, only ever adding content, never removing it. As you and David Hume say, anybody who assumed that this would always be the case in the future is responsible for their disappointment with the overlays. For me, this is MMPs only big blunder, so it doesn't change my opinion of them much.

But if this sort of thing continues to happen in future products, then downgrading MMP from a "company I can blindly trust" to a "company whose products I thoroughly research to make sure I know exactly what is and isn't in them" will be a bummer. And I think something worth taking about on this forum.
Oh I agree that customers can point out what they expect of a product.

I don't know / remember on the otherhand if you are one of those I would describe as "acting all surprised & devastated", as if they just got ambushed. But to those who do - the components of CdG are all listed out on their website and to the more social media active there were photos and discussion about their Vichy & Free French counters here on GS.

People might know I am a total MMP fan as well but like you said, in this day and age, I don't take any company on blind trust. But no, I don't automatically go thermonuclear drama queen or call them evil or CH-like the second their product decisions differ from my expectations. When a company makes a product decision that differs from my expectation (and list them out in the open), they make that out of their business consideration. No it doesn't go towards the subject of "trust" unless (say) they promised one thing when they took my money and gave me another.

My responsibility to my hard earned cash is to bear my responsibility as an informed buyer, especially when all that product info is listed in the open. A seller is free to make product decisions. A buyer is free to make purchase choices. That's all I am saying.
 

RobZagnut

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ASLers don't whine.

It's our normal disposition. We're spoiled and don't know how good we have it, so we gotta talk about something. We've been fully supported for 35 years with hundreds of products and 5000+ scenarios. No other game can boast that, so we have a lot of expectations.
 

TopT

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ASLers don't whine.

It's our normal disposition. We're spoiled and don't know how good we have it, so we gotta talk about something. We've been fully supported for 35 years with hundreds of products and 5000+ scenarios. No other game can boast that, so we have a lot of expectations.
We are just like a Marine... If we aren't bitchin', we ain't happy!
 

bprobst

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MMP may decide it merits errata, but it does not merit charges of stupidity by a long shot.
Of course it does, for the reasons that JR describes. In fact, it's even more stupid than I had at first thought, because you say that the original map did not have this pointless distinction, and it was changed as a matter of someone's (deliberate) choice. So it wasn't just an "artistic accident", but rather a flaw deliberately introduced into the product, benefiting absolutely no-one. Clearly your standards may differ, but I can't think of a word more suitable than "stupid" for such a decision.

In case anyone is not paying close attention, I am still saying that CdG2 is an excellent product. Unfortunately, it's an excellent product that is marred by several stupid production decisions. MMP has to own the responsibility for that. Hopefully future products will not suffer similarly.
 

Carln0130

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Of course it does, for the reasons that JR describes. In fact, it's even more stupid than I had at first thought, because you say that the original map did not have this pointless distinction, and it was changed as a matter of someone's (deliberate) choice. So it wasn't just an "artistic accident", but rather a flaw deliberately introduced into the product, benefiting absolutely no-one. Clearly your standards may differ, but I can't think of a word more suitable than "stupid" for such a decision.

In case anyone is not paying close attention, I am still saying that CdG2 is an excellent product. Unfortunately, it's an excellent product that is marred by several stupid production decisions. MMP has to own the responsibility for that. Hopefully future products will not suffer similarly.
They didn't ask some to differ from others. They asked they be changed. A couple were missed. That fact slipped past proofers. Sounds like human error to me. Not stupidity.
 

bprobst

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They didn't ask some to differ from others. They asked they be changed.
Changed from what? You said the original version was fine. If someone asks for something that's correct to be changed to something that isn't, that's stupidity. I'm not giving MMP any credit here. Somebody, somewhere, made a stupid decision.
 

Justiciar

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Of course it does, for the reasons that JR describes. In fact, it's even more stupid than I had at first thought, because you say that the original map did not have this pointless distinction, and it was changed as a matter of someone's (deliberate) choice. So it wasn't just an "artistic accident", but rather a flaw deliberately introduced into the product, benefiting absolutely no-one. Clearly your standards may differ, but I can't think of a word more suitable than "stupid" for such a decision.

In case anyone is not paying close attention, I am still saying that CdG2 is an excellent product. Unfortunately, it's an excellent product that is marred by several stupid production decisions. MMP has to own the responsibility for that. Hopefully future products will not suffer similarly.
Why are you not working for them? Clearly you have perfect skills,...or volunteering to help them, again b/c they know your are so good at proofing....clearly nothing "stupid" or "even more stupid" happened on any MMP project you were associated with right? I am right on that aren't I? Happy to be wrong. But, don't make me go are read the credit sections of MMP products and then cross-index to the errata on MMP's website or Klas' Q/A errata....don't make me do that. Man up and admit where you were part of the "group" and failed to catch "stupid." B/c if I go through and cross check and find you were part of the group and there is errata of any form...guess what...you are gonna look waaaayyy worse than stupid.
 

Carln0130

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Changed from what? You said the original version was fine. If someone asks for something that's correct to be changed to something that isn't, that's stupidity. I'm not giving MMP any credit here. Somebody, somewhere, made a stupid decision.
Somebody said the color is off, please change it. Someone tried to change it and did, except for two buildings which were missed. Human error. If it had been left as is, you would be complaining that they weren't official colors, wouldn't you? Yeah, I sincerely believe you would. That's all I have to say on this subject. You be content to be upset, I'll be content to let you be upset. We won't agree anytime in our lifetimes. We are both at the point of wasting our time now.
 

phlegm027

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To heck with "artistic freedom". How many players are going to spend how much time poring through those rules pages wondering "why the heck are these buildings a different colour to those buildings"? (And make no mistake, we're not talking a "subtle shading difference" here.) What a mind-bogglingly stupid idea (whoever's idea it was). If you're going to do idiotic things like that then FFS explain your idiocy to the people who are buying the module. For stupidity it's right up there with "let's not include overlays so people can't play the scenarios that require those overlays"* and "let's give some counters special-coloured IDs and not explain why". I love the CdG2 package overall but honestly MMP must have collectively been drunk or high during some important planning meetings for this one. Proof-readers might have to take some of the blame, too, for apparently not asking what are clearly very obvious questions (unless the questions were asked and they were ignored).

* [which of course is combined with the Tapio-worthy idea of "they're essential, so we'll charge extra for them -- and here's the best bit -- we don't even know when we'll bother to make them available"]
Bruce,

I am the one to blame for the horrendous crime of allowing Nadir to make every roof on the map different. Is it really that big a deal to come on and ask why the buildings look different. I guess it’s just easier to sit behind the keyboard and be insulting.

For pete's sake Bruce after a 2 minute look at the terrain rules make no mention of a building made out of anything but Wood or Stone. The buildings in question are lighter than the others. Is it that big a deal? That you would insult people who did this great piece of work and I think its the best map that’s ever been done for ASL. If it is. Then the problem is yours not mine.

I know you’ve been doing this a long time but you really need to take a minute before you post something as insulting as your last post was and think about what you’re saying and how you say it. Being a Curmudgeon is only endearing to thosse who actually care about listening to your crap.

if you don’t think it’s worth the price you paid. You can hold it for a couple of months until it goes up on the eBay market.

to those who I’ve offended with this post, I apologize.

Edited by moderator to replace profanity in quoted text and response.
 
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Jeffrey D Myers

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I'm not offended, but these are difficult times (and GS Forums should be accepting of such posts). Cheers, Jeff

P.S. The Division West ASL Club here in ABQ was canceled today.

P.S.S. Thanks for your work on the CdG 2.0 HASL!
 

Gunner Scott

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Thanks Dan, wish I had the pdf's of the scenarios too look over, but will have to wait until cdg arrives to get an idea of what I want to play. Anyway, what I am asking in particular, I really do not want to play tiny little scenarios, I want something with a little meat to them bones, so hopefully there are a good chunk of Dinant scenarios that are meaty to play.

Scott

Scott,
start with DN1 Prelude: Chabrez. And play them in numerical order. that’ll be the best way to see what happened in roughly the order things happened.
 
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Sparky

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I think its the best map that’s ever been done for ASL. If it is.
great overall reply but I took the liberty of snipping a point ...

While I haven't got Dinant on the table yet and may not for some time as I plan on hitting the 3 west front 1940 HASL that have come out recently sequentially as it were and that puts Dinant last I did look long and hard at the map. It is a really good one... but best? Defintely didn't jump out as best and I do have remember several that did in terms of aestetics and apparant tactical playing challenges straight out of the box.

I'd be curous to hear why you do think it best.. and on that note. Perhaps a top 5 HASL maps IYO. I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts.
 
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