DINANT

Den589

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
149
Reaction score
113
Location
Waterford, MI
Country
llUnited States
I'm guessing that it only applies to a pushing a Pontoon Section, but in 3.62 the manhandling section DRM's table states -2 for "Crossing a road hexside." Since this sections DRM's also apply for unloading /loading, if you are unloading into a road do you apply the -2? I'm assuming not because I'm just IN a road hex and not "CROSSING a road hexside", but just making absolutely sure we've got it right before the mass building of bridges begins.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,137
Reaction score
1,206
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
I'm guessing that it only applies to a pushing a Pontoon Section, but in 3.62 the manhandling section DRM's table states -2 for "Crossing a road hexside." Since this sections DRM's also apply for unloading /loading, if you are unloading into a road do you apply the -2? I'm assuming not because I'm just IN a road hex and not "CROSSING a road hexside", but just making absolutely sure we've got it right before the mass building of bridges begins.
Litterally applies to pushing it down the road. Getting all that off the transport is just as tough on a road as not :).
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,137
Reaction score
1,206
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
As far as I can tell. Nice sniper attack, and interesting nuance I need to think about, i.e., don't leave yourself in bypass if snipers are around.
Yup. Forewarned and all that.
 

afgur

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
80
Reaction score
12
Location
Trussville, Al
First name
Alan
Country
llUnited States
hello all

looking at dn5. 3 tanks and 1ferry to cross river. if I understand rules right the third tank won't be across till turn 10? just wondering.

thanks
alan
 

The Purist

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,252
Reaction score
436
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
From my experience so far with the opening CG scenario I think German players may be overly optimistic to think they will:

a) have a major bridgehead by the end of the first scenario
b) throw multiple ferries into, or a bridge over, the river in the first scenario
c) destroy the four French companies and supporting HW sections in the first scenario.

Exceptions will no doubt occur but, IMO, the Germans need to focus on getting across the river and clearing a section of the west bank in the morning. Then using those 70 CPP to start expanding the bridgehead in the afternoon creating the space needed for at a least an 8-ton bridge supported by a couple of ferries in the afternoon.

I also just noticed that a 16-ton pontoon bridge will not fully support either the Pz IIIF or the Pz IVD, both weighing in the 20 ton range. As the 16-ton bridge is treated as a wooden bridge these tanks may collapse the bridge on a DR 10+. It may be wise to use ferries with pulley lines.

All this engineering may mean waiting until evening before armour can really start moving over Meuse.

Something else for the Germans to think about beyond snipers immobilising pontoon carriers or zapping H/MMG stacks.

Tricky business, this river assault, wot-wot. 🧐
 

phlegm027

Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
127
Reaction score
173
Location
Vernon. NJ
Good observations concerning German expectations for the 1st CG (morning) scenario.
You Also state it might be the evening before the Panzers can get across the river. You might learn another thing about Dinant during the afternoon and evening scenarios . . . Traffic management. Getting bridging equipment and troops and AFV’S down to the river in the right place and time to
  1. Build Bridges
  2. Fight their way across the river
  3. Fight up from the riverbank through either the Northern or Southern Reentrants or the Chateau de Meez road in the center.
But it will probably be the Night scenario (4th) that the bridges get finished and AFV’S in some kind of numbers across. The fight to get atop the cliffs and toward the exit points will be a puzzle for both players. Don’t get down as either player. There’s a lot of fighting ahead.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,137
Reaction score
1,206
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
From my experience so far with the opening CG scenario I think German players may be overly optimistic to think they will:

a) have a major bridgehead by the end of the first scenario
b) throw multiple ferries into, or a bridge over, the river in the first scenario
c) destroy the four French companies and supporting HW sections in the first scenario.

Exceptions will no doubt occur but, IMO, the Germans need to focus on getting across the river and clearing a section of the west bank in the morning. Then using those 70 CPP to start expanding the bridgehead in the afternoon creating the space needed for at a least an 8-ton bridge supported by a couple of ferries in the afternoon.

I also just noticed that a 16-ton pontoon bridge will not fully support either the Pz IIIF or the Pz IVD, both weighing in the 20 ton range. As the 16-ton bridge is treated as a wooden bridge these tanks may collapse the bridge on a DR 10+. It may be wise to use ferries with pulley lines.

All this engineering may mean waiting until evening before armour can really start moving over Meuse.

Something else for the Germans to think about beyond snipers immobilising pontoon carriers or zapping H/MMG stacks.

Tricky business, this river assault, wot-wot. 🧐
Hi. Incorrect on the Pontoon Bridges collapsing. DN3.5 states they are treated as Wooden Bridges for the purposes of B6.33. Checking that rule, that is for blowing them up. B6.41 says unlimited weight capacity for a Pontoon Bridge.
DN3.51 gives you hard and fast limits on what can go on which Pontoon Bridge.
8 ton Pontoon Bridges hold 9 tons or less. 16's are unlimited for the purposes of Dinant.
 

The Purist

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,252
Reaction score
436
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
Ah. I thought that B6.42 might supersede B6.41 but alas.

So much the better. The bridges will now hold my H-35's as well as the AMC-29's and AMD-35s without issue when General Duffet orders his 'Force de Frappe' over the Meuse and to head for the Rhineland.

We'll show this uppity body guard who's who <sniff - sniff> 🤨
 
Last edited:

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,137
Reaction score
1,206
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
Ah. I thought that B6.42 might supersede B6.41 but alas.

So much the better. The bridges will now hold my H-35's as well as the AMC-29's and AMD-35s without issue when General Duffet orders his 'Force de Frappe' over the Meuse headed for the Rhineland.

We'll show this uppity body guard who's who <sniff - sniff> 🤨
Yeah B6.42 is only for wooden bridges as described in the rules. An ASL Wooden bridge is different than an ASL Pontoon bridge. Wood be damned :).
 

pensatl1962

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
379
Reaction score
148
Location
Buford, GA
Country
llUnited States
hello all

looking at dn5. 3 tanks and 1ferry to cross river. if I understand rules right the third tank won't be across till turn 10? just wondering.

thanks
alan
I'm getting ready to play DN5 as the French. A question came up with my opponent about the German forces east of the river, specifically the Ferry and the 3 AFV. We are wondering how the Germans get 3 AFV across with one ferry in a relatively timely manner. First of all, we both assume that Pulley Lines are n/a for this scenario due to the requirement of having two AE squad equivalents (one on each bank) for the 16-ton ferry.

The setup states "Set up east of the river; boats/Ferry may set up Beached, but Infantry may not set up in the same hex as a boat/Ferry [EXC: the 4-6-8 Assault Engineer squad must set up as a Passenger on the Ferry]". Okay, so far so good. It does not say whether any one of the 3 AFV can set up already loaded (along with the 4-6-8 AE) on the Ferry. Can this be done as part of the setup? If so, it would seem the Germans could get a one turn jump on getting an AFV across.

And to follow up on afgur's question above, is it correct to interpret the Ferry mechanics as: three total turns to get one AFV loaded onto the Ferry (one turn), the Ferry to move across the Meuse and beach (a second turn), and then to get the AFV unloaded (a third turn), during which we suppose the Ferry can simultaneously unbeach? Then on the fourth turn the Ferry can be moved back to the east bank and beached...? DN3.22: "A Ferry may not move in the same MPh as any passengers load/unload on/off it..." seems to be the relevant rule. I just want to make sure this interpretation is correct.

Thank you.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,137
Reaction score
1,206
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
The Ferry does not Unbeach the Turn that the Passengers, be they vehicles or Infantry Load/Unload. 13166
The paste job didn't go all that well, but long story short. Turn 1, Load on Ferry. Turn 2, Unbeach, make it across, Beach. (Assuming a 2 hex stretch of river, Turn 3, Unload, Unbeach in ADV Phase. Turn 4 go back and Beach. The rest is all correct. No Pullies, because it is a 16 Ton Ferry and you need two AE Squads to run the Pulley. The AE is there to pilot the Ferry at full speed back and forth. As for the tanks starting as passengers I will let Dan get that one, as I do not want to err as to intent. Dan?
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,795
Reaction score
3,245
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
As for the tanks starting as passengers I will let Dan get that one, as I do not want to err as to intent. Dan?
The current setup instructions don't allow for it, since it says "east of the river" and the Ferry sets up Beached in the river. IIRC.
 

pensatl1962

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
379
Reaction score
148
Location
Buford, GA
Country
llUnited States
Klas, thank you for your reply. I understand what you are saying but I'm still a bit confused about whether the beached boat for setup purposes is in the river or is "east of the river" as specified in the setup (emphasis added): "Set up east of the river; boats/Ferry may set up Beached, but Infantry may not set up in the same hex as a boat/Ferry [EXC: the 4-6-8 Assault Engineer squad must set up as a Passenger on the Ferry]".

Here's where my confusing stems: E5.23 BEACHING states in part (emphasis added): "A Beached boat and its passengers are at the elevation level of the water, but are not in the water." If they are not in the water, would they not be indeed east of the river? The setup specifically states that Infantry may not set up in the same hex as a boat/Ferry, which implies to me that without this caveat they could do so.

I appreciate any clarification to this. I must admit that the last time I played using boat rules was probably before the fall of the Berlin Wall. :) So, to say I'm rusty on this would be an understatement. Thanks!
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,795
Reaction score
3,245
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
Here's where my confusing stems: E5.23 BEACHING states in part (emphasis added): "A Beached boat and its passengers are at the elevation level of the water, but are not in the water." If they are not in the water, would they not be indeed east of the river?
I don't think so. They would still be in the water hex - just not in the water.


The setup specifically states that Infantry may not set up in the same hex as a boat/Ferry, which implies to me that without this caveat they could do so.
I am starting to think that instruction is something that isn't really needed, and also that the boats/Ferry can set up Beached should have been in the EXC as well.
 

boylermaker

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
427
Reaction score
277
Location
Virginia
Country
llUnited States
I'm been looking at getting into some of the Dinant scenarios, so I've been trying to figure out the terrain. Some of it I dig (I like greenhouses a lot: minimal rules overhead, the new rules are easy to remember, and very high flavor content), but I'm just baffled by Emplacement Railroads.

Chapter B just says about EmRR that "they are like Hillocks, see Chapter F" and almost nothing else.

I don't have Chapter F.

The Dinant rules then have a whole half-page about EmRR. I can't tell whether these are additional new rules for EmRR that are in addition to whatever is in B/F, or whether you are just putting the existing EmRR rules in one place for people like me who joined the hobby after Chapter F went out of print. Or some middle ground? The real question is: do I need to know what's in Chapter F to figure out EmRR in Dinant?

Also, looking at the board (the VASL board), it looks like there are only 5 EmRR hexes. Is this right? I don't understand why you would bring in EmRR, which are based on a notorious rule that people only understand well enough to know they hate it (queue Klas arriving to say "actually, Hillocks are quite simple" in 5 ... 4 ...), if they aren't a major part of the battlefield, so possibly I'm misinterpreting which railroads are which? Or is there some gameplay reason why EmRR in those 5 hexes are so vital that I am not grokking?
 

CTKnudsen

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
449
Reaction score
324
Location
Oromocto, NB
Country
llCanada
(queue Klas arriving to say "actually, Hillocks are quite simple" in 5 ... 4 ...)
Ahahaha - he might say such, but I'd be kinda surprised, hillocks are awful. Luckily, DN4.23 has pretty much all you need, so far as I can tell - I think this was done deliberately because Ch F is OOP. Festung Budapest also has a good reiteration of the EmRR rules as they pertain to, well, EmRR. Even then there are always questions, largely from me. If you feel like looking, there were a couple of threads regarding LOS perversions permutations around the EmRR in Hatten in Flames a few months back.

And I would imagine there are EmRR hexes there because for that 200m-odd of RR, the terrain is better suited to EmRR than ELRR or GLRR! Fidelity, baby!
 
Last edited:
Top