DINANT

Carln0130

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Well,..... shoot. Ok, so be it. I'm not sure how much that would have changed my defence set up but it is what it is. As long as the LOS for hexesides such as MM40-MM39 and north to MM36 are not blocked by the green in MM39 (as per B10.2 adjacent) we should be good.

I'm thinking the crestline for rivers should have been drawn the same as for hills - the lower elevation water would intrude into the higher elevation land rather than the opposite.

But we're 40 odd years too late for that. :)
That horse has definitely left the barn.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I'm thinking the crestline for rivers should have been drawn the same as for hills - the lower elevation water would intrude into the higher elevation land rather than the opposite.
I agree - and had we not had the legacy from board 7 & 8 I am sure they would have been drawn like that....
 

The Purist

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Well then,... there is only one thing for it. 🤔 In the next MMP product all river boards will have to be re-issued with the changed crest lines.

It's the only proper thing to do. 🧐
 

Philippe D.

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I'm thinking the crestline for rivers should have been drawn the same as for hills - the lower elevation water would intrude into the higher elevation land rather than the opposite.
Agreed, though the rules seem to be written under the assumption that the crest line should be considered to be in the shore hex:

B21.2 said:
Therefore a unit IN a Water Obstacle hex may trace a LOS into only the initial hex of each level above it; however, this LOS can be blocked by other LOS requirements (such as distance from a Crest Line). Similarly, a unit on a higher level may trace a LOS INTO a Water Obstacle hex only if between it and the Water Obstacle hex, there are no other intervening hexsides (other than its own) of equal or higher elevation to it.
 

The Purist

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Gents,

1) Could a squad that uses it full MF to manhandle a Large Raft (or other boat) to PP40 then Beach (OO41/PP40) and Load into the boat in the Advance Phase as per E5.23 (normally 2 MF in the MPh)? Assumption is yes but...

2) If yes, could the boat also be un-Beached in the AdvPh as per E5.23 since DN3.11 does not provide and EXC to this action?

3) Or, is 2) not allowed because DN3.11 requires a Boat to expend 1 MP (as a vehicle) to un-Beach and this can only be done in the MPh
 
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The Purist

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Thanks Gents. This adds some flexibility to German tactics.

Now, if you will allow me to play devils advocate, I will approach this from the perspective of rules for Vehicles (and the French defenders) as well as reducing the actual crossing time.

DN3.11 changes E5.23 such that un-beaching now costs 1 MP. MPs are only expended by vehicles and so far as I can remember, vehicles cannot expend MP in a hex during the AdvPh. If my memory isn't faulty, about the only thing a vehicle can do in the AdvPh is have Passengers or Crew change from CE to BU and vis-versa ( I may be missing some rare, seldom used rule here or something from LC and Amphibs).

So the argument could be made that one could beach a Boat from building and load in the AdvPh but the expenditure of 1 MP to un-Beach would not be allowed.

Otherwise, the crossing of the Meuse could be done in one German MPh , with less risk to the Germans as they could move from a water hex in LOS to the blind hex behind the Lvl 0/Lvl -1 Crest without a DFF shot from the French. The French would effectively lose a DFPh while the German infantry that would otherwise be loading into boats in the MPh are shooting at the French. From one German AdvPh to the next German AdvPh there would be just one French PFPh in between.

Compare that to the two German MPh it takes to cross using regular method where the French get a DFPh and PFPh before the Boats can beach on the west side of the Meuse.

Beaching and Loading in the AdvPh - Ok
Un-Beaching in AdvPh - NA

Thoughts?
 
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Carln0130

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They still eat a prep and a defensive first fire. Plus the boat sits beached for the final defensive fire phase of the first French turn.
Ironically, boats are safer in the water than beached. So it really depends, as do all good ASL conundrums.
As for the MP thing, the movement phase MP expenditure in Dinant is a specific rule exception for this HASL, as such, I don't have an issue with that, though I note your point.
 

The Purist

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They still eat a prep and a defensive first fire...
Ahah!. I think I just saw where I missed the important bit. That would be E5.22 rather than the wording of E5.23. If the boats are inside the building at the start of the APh they could not be Beached and therefore not loaded into (no manhandling allowed in the APh to beach the boat).

Tunnel vision on E5.23 there for a bit. Cheers for that.

That said,... a couple or three fire phases of 31+ squads with 10 M/HMG, 8 LMG and 3 50* MTR puts a lot of fire on French ? stacks, more deadly still with Opp Fire. By French turn 2 the Germans could have added another 11 squads with another 5 MGs and a mortar. At the same time a French HMG w/ an 8-1 Ldr shooting at boats has just 2 FP for a TK of 4 out to range 6, dropping to a TK of 3 at range 7-12 and so on.

Interesting choices. 🙂
 
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phlegm027

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Remember that stacking mg’s together. DN5 makes those big kill stacks sniper targets.

you don’t get 31+ squads firing. Some I imagine will be doing boat things. Some will be at long range, concealed targets in stone buildings make a lot of 8+3 or +2 shots. Also spending 2 or 3 turns using as much firepower is going to delay the crossing. Giving the French more time to get troops to the river. The first CG period is a crap shoot. The Germans have enough to get forces across but they need to get moving quickly Or they won’t get anybody up onto the cliffs.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Now, if you will allow me to play devils advocate, I will approach this from the perspective of rules for Vehicles (and the French defenders) as well as reducing the actual crossing time.

DN3.11 changes E5.23 such that un-beaching now costs 1 MP.
DN3.11 says:
"Contrary to E5.23, it costs a Beached boat/Ferry 1 MP to un-Beach in the MPh,.."

So it seems clear (IMO) that possiblities in the APh is not altered by DN3.11.
 

The Purist

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DN3.11 says:
"Contrary to E5.23, it costs a Beached boat/Ferry 1 MP to un-Beach in the MPh,.."

So it seems clear (IMO) that possiblities in the APh is not altered by DN3.11.
No worries Klas,... I overlooked E5.22 and its prohibition against manhandling in the advance phase. Together with E5.23 it changed what I thought boats might do in the advance phase. I understand the argument you and Carl are saying now. 👍
 

The Purist

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Ok,... situation that has developed in Turn 5.

French sniper lands in a hex with an SdKfz 7 towing 2 x 8-ton pontoons. Unfortunately the German halftrack is in bypass between two building and the resulting 1 on the sniper roll immobilises the beast. Checking the rules it appears the vehicle and pontoons are scuppered. You cannot manhandle (unload) the pontoons in bypass nor can you push the immobilised vehicle into an ADJACENT open ground hex similar to what you can do with a wreck.

Is this reading of the rules correct?
 

The Purist

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Regarding Hidden Guns and the A12.121 Concealment Loss/Gain Table

I probably knew this off by heart back in the day but after 10 years I just want to confirm my understanding of the rule is correct. I can't recall this situation coming up very often or at all in recent memory.

There is a gun in the Dinant battle (not important which one or its caliber :sneaky: ). It is both HIP and not in enemy LOS. According to the CLGT it would only lose its HIP status under Case F. To my mind this means a HIP gun could change CA without losing its HIP status .

Is this correct? If yes, I am assuming one simply updates the CA on the written record?

I suppose the same would apply to a hypothetical German 81* Mor that might be Concealed and using a spotter. A CA change, repair attempt, etc. would not be "seen" by the opposing player other than by announcing the activity (ie: "repair a HIP/? 81* Mor)

Yes? Or have I missed some obvious xx.xxx paragraph? 🤔
 

klasmalmstrom

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IIRC, a Gun can't change CA will hidden - i.e., you can't "update" you HIP notes. I know the question has come up before, so there should be some threads here on GS about it already.
 

TopT

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A 12.32 Hidden units may not move (even within their hex or to change a CA) or advance and remain hidden.

If you did not play by this rule, the chance of abuse could be much larger (IE: you would/ could always have the correct CA).
 
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