DINANT

Michael Dorosh

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Dinant?

Despite being in German, the uploader provided excellent English closed-captioning.
 

The Purist

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Good evening, Gents,

First of all, thanks to the responders to the posts in helping sort through the initial questions on HIP, Emplacements, etc. It's been a while since I delved into a campaign game. With the rules involving what to purchase for the first two scenarios pretty much tucked away I turned my attention to the defence as well as the German attack and that led me to the DN River Assault rules. Much like the pillbox rules, I don't think I've used the boat rules since the last time I played The Dinant Bridgehead however long ago.

There is a lot to absorb there so I focused on rules for Boats (DN3,1) today. In order to plan the defense I figured it would be good to understand how and where the terrain might help a German assault and what to expect from the boats. Other than the Inherent Driver the Boat rules appear to work pretty much the same as they do in E5 with perhaps one or two items that are different (or may not be).

I'll use two examples to see if I understand "Boats" and then throw in some LOS and fire attacks to if I have it right.

Example 1: Large Rafts (LR)

There are 2 squads in each of the hexes OO10 and OO11. There is an LR (A and B) Beached across hexsides NN10/OO10 and NN11/OO11. As per 3.11 it now costs 1 MP to un-beach. The 2 squads in OO12 declare 1 MF to load into LR(A)and they immediately drop down to the -1 level of the river. LR (A) expends 1 MF to un-Beach which puts the LR into hex NN10 with only 1 MP remaining. The LR then moves to MM11 and because there are Land hexsides available it declares it will Beach across LL10/MM11. With no MP remaining the passengers cannot unload (not least of all because you cannot load on a vehicle and unload in the same phase).

The squads in OO11 then load into LR (B) along hexside NN11/OO11, un-Beach into OO11, then move to MM11 declaring they will Beach along hexside LL11/MM11 (since they cannot beach along LL10/MM11 due to stacking limits).

During the AdvPh the troops in LR (A) can advance from their boat into hex LL10 only because of the hexside they beached. LR (B) would likewise have to Adv to hex LL11. The cost of this advance would be 3 MP for each stackeach (un-load for 1 MP + Adv to higher elevation +2 = 3MP) Had a wall or hedge been present along the hexside the cost would have been 4 MP and both stack would be CX for Advance vs Difficult Terrain (A4.72)

So far so good (I believe). That looks correct for applying the Raft rules

Next I looked at what the French might be able to do about an assault from this direction.

The Elevated RR is clearly a problem for the French as it blocks LOS from the town of Bouvignes-sur-Meuse as well as the Church, buildings and woods on the lower and upper slopes of the high ground to the west. It also creates a row of blind hexes behind the ElRR that cannot be countered. Further (!!!) another row of blind hexes will be created along the western most Water hexes of the Meuse by the crest lines between the Level -1 Water hexes and the Level 0 road hexes directly behind the ElRR (with one or two exceptions).

Realising the LOS along that front to the River itself are problematic, a French player might choose to place a 37* INF w/crew in DD5 (as an example).

During the German MPh, upon the German players first declaration of loading LR (A) in NN10/OO10 (-2 Haz Mv) the boat and PRC are immediately at Lvl -1 (water) but are still Beached and thus an "average" sized target. The French player declares an attempt to hit vs the boat (vehicle) with direct fire ordnance using HE ammunition as per E5.52 from the DD5 position.

The range from DD to NN10 is 10 hexes. The range creates additional blind hexes behind the ElRR and the Lvl -1/0 crestline but the 37* INF at Lvl 4 has enough additional height to cancel these out. The boat is not moving but the PRC used Haz Mv to load. French Ord uses Black TH numbers so the BASE TH is 9 with no other C5 or C6 modifiers.

Our French gunners roll a Final TH DR of 4 and retain ROF. As per E5.52 the LR is destroyed (a 3 boat small raft would be CR) as are any SW the two squads possessed. The same DR of 4 is applied with a -2 to the IFT for the Haz Mv (E5.53.) resulting in a K/2 (and all that goes with it). The German MMCs are still at the water line and during AdvPh would have to Adv back onto a Lvl 0 hex that is Adjacent.

This all seems to make Sense

Now,.... (deep breath)

Let's assume the first shot missed but the ROF was maintained (ignore the obvious here considering a TH of 9). The German player announces the LR has un-Beached for second MF. The Boat is now in the Water and as per E5.52 is considered a HD target. The Boat (vehicle) has not entered a new hex yet so is not considered to be Moving/Non-stopped. The TH is still a 9 and the French fire again with HE. The TH DR is a 5 but the coloured dr is higher than the white dr, the the boat is missed.

However, a Specific Collateral Attack (D.8A) should (?) be applied against the PRC using full effect on the IFT. This would mean on 5 or less (unarmoured TK # on IFT ) the LR would CR but because an LR cannot CR it would be destroyed instead. A TH DR of 6+ that also failed to hit the HD boats would have no effect as PRC IN boats do not take MC/LLMC and PIN results do not apply.

Or,... are Collateral Attacks against Boats/Ferries/Pontoons NA

Unless I missed something that should be it for Large Rafts. Small Rafts, Assault Boats, Ferries and Pontoons seem to be a variation on the above but seem to work much the same way.

Has it occurred to anyone else that we play a game that requires understanding everything I wrote above just to move one boat counter one hex 😖
 
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Carln0130

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This next question is only because I have not had to deal with railways and pillboxes since about 2007 in RB (and there are differences now).

B32.11 and B32.12 state that a GlRR and EmRR are functionally the same as paved roads (B3) with a few noted exceptions. B30 states a Pillbox can be placed on "any" Road (but not bridges). Unless I am mistaken this means the French pillboxes could be set up on either GlRR or EmRR.

That said, as there is no exception given to B27.1 a Trench could not be placed in a GlRR or EmRR (effectively a paved road) with a pillbox to create a Bunker (B30.8)

(Either way,....I still haven't figured out what to do with the beasties.)

Which leads me to the Bunker rule and definition of "Accessible" in this case. I checked the latest Perry Sez (Mar 2020) but I didn't find what I was looking for.

Assume a Pillbox is in hex DNJJ44, and a Trench is in DNII45. According to the B30.8 text …"A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a Bunker."

The "and/or" here could trip one up a bit but if you read the sentence without the "and" it would read... "A Pillbox counter in the same hex with a trench and/or in a hex Accessible to a Trench counter's hex is considered a Bunker."

As JJ44 is "Accessible" to II45, is the Pillbox in DNJJ44 therefore a Bunker?

(I should know this and I think the answer is yes but... 🤔)
Ok, getting back to question 2 a bit late on this, my apologies. Ok, so JJ44 and II45, let's have a look.

B27.6, the rule that allows Trenches to connect to other Trenches/Sangars of higher or lower elevation is specific to only those Fortification types. So we find no help there. That said, JJ45-II45 is certainly Accessible by the Index definition of Accessible. This takes us back to Bunkers, B30.8. Given that and bearing in mind the three exceptions at the end of B30.8, you can set up a Bunker in those two hexes.
So the short answer? Yeah, that's fine. :)
 

Michael Dorosh

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It was a bit interesting for the first 3-4 minutes but after that,.... meh.
The last couple of minutes are the best. The commander gets the tank into a hull down position and is able to direct the gunner, firing blind through brush, into direct hits using target markers.
 

Carln0130

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<<There is an LR (A and B) Beached across hexsides NN10/OO10 and NN11/OO11.>>

Hard to tell from this if there are two Large Rafts beached or one. If One, it would be beached only along ONE River/Land hexside. (Edit: Figrued out what you were doing downstream).

<<The 2 squads in OO12 declare 1 MF to load into LR(A)and they immediately drop down to the -1 level of the river. LR (A) expends 1 MF to un-Beach which puts the LR into hex NN10 with only 1 MP remaining.>>

Incorrect. The 1 MF to Load expends 1 of the Raft's MP's. See also E5.21 toward the bottom of the paragraph. By expending 1 MF to Load, you now have 3 MF to power the raft's Raft's 2 MP FRD. Per this rule, you now have 3 MF remaining and each one is used to power 1/4 the raft's remaining MP FRD. This leaves one and 1 half MP FRD to one. The FRD part is the key. So they get into the drink, but no farther, because in Dinant, it costs 1 MP to Launch as well. This means when crossing a 2 hex wide river on a 2MP Raft, if the Infantry did not begin the move Loaded, it is going to take you two turns to get across due to all Passengers only having 4MF in a turn where they Load/Unload to/from any transport. Rafts included.
See also the example at the bottom of Page E11 in the Pocket Rule Book. Read in a way, because the first couple of examples don't help, but by the end of the last sentence of the first paragraph you have hit paydirt.

<< With no MP remaining the passengers cannot unload (not least of all because you cannot load on a vehicle and unload in the same phase).>>

Not to mention they are going to higher elevation per the example in E5.32.

<< During the AdvPh the troops in LR (A) can advance from their boat into hex LL10 only because of the hexside the beached. LR (B) would likewise have to Adv to hex LL11. The cost of this advance would be 3 MP for each stack each (un-load for 1 MP + Adv to higher elevation +2 = 3MP). Had a wall or hedge been present along the hexside the cost would have been 4 MP and both stack would be CX for Advance vs Difficult Terrain (A4.72)>>

Ok, yup.

<<During the German MPh, upon the German players first declaration of loading LR (A) in NN10/OO10 (-2 Haz Mv) the boat and PRC are immediately at Lvl -1 (water) but are still Beached and thus an "average" sized target. The French player declares an attempt to hit vs the boat (vehicle) with direct fire ordnance using HE ammunition as per E5.52 from the DD5 position.>>

No Hazardous Movement. The only mention of that is in E5.531 and that is a very specific situation that is not mentioned here. Also, don't forget per CG3 Mist is in effect from Turns 1-3 on the Morning Dates. Otherwise, ok.

<<The range from DD to NN10 is 10 hexes. The range creates additional blind hexes behind the ElRR and the Lvl -1/0 crestline but the 37* INF at Lvl 4 has enough additional height to cancel these out. The boat is not moving but the PRC used Haz Mv to load. French Ord uses Black TH numbers so the BASE TH is 9 with no other C5 or C6 modifiers.>>

FFMO/FFNAM but no Hazardous movement and the +1 for the Mist assuming this is during turns 1-3 of the original scenario.

<<
The same DR of 4 is applied with a -2 to the IFT for the Haz Mv (E5.53.) resulting in a K/2 (and all that goes with it). The German MMCs are still at the water line and during AdvPh would have to Adv back onto a Lvl 0 hex that is Adjacent.>>

Now, assuming the Raft was taken out, then E5.531 applies to any surrvivors and that is where the HM -2 comes in. But the survivors get dumped in the drink first and then get shot up with the -2HM.

<<Let's assume the first shot missed but the ROF was maintained (ignore the obvious here considering a TH of 9). The German player announces the LR has un-Beached for second MF. The Boat is now in the Water and as per E5.52 is considered a HD target. The Boat (vehicle) has not entered a new hex yet so is not considered to be Moving/Non-stopped. The TH is still a 9 and the French fire again with HE. The TH DR is a 5 but the coloured dr is higher than the white dr, the the boat is missed.>>

E5.3 is what you are missing here. Boats are ALWAYS considered in Motion unless beached per this rule. So now a Very Small, HD, Motion target with Mist helping it.

<<However, a Specific Collateral Attack (D.8A) should (?) be applied against the PRC using full effect on the IFT. This would mean on 5 the LR would CR but because an LR cannot CR it would be destroyed instead. A TH DR of 6+ that also failed to hit the HD boats would have no effect as PRC IN boats do not take MC/LLMC and PIN results do not apply.>>

Missing the last sentence of E5.5 regarding Passengers sharing the fate of their boat and not being able to be attacked separately apart from Snipers.

<<
Unless I missed something that should be it for Large Rafts. Small Rafts, Assault Boats, Ferries and Pontoons seem to be a variation on the above but seem to work much the same way.

Has it occurred to anyone else that we play a game that requires understanding everything I wrote above just to move one boat counter one hex 😖>>

Yeah, but once you know what you are doing, you are on easy street. All kidding aside. Please IM me in private and we can exchange Skype information. That will make the transfer of info back and forth by voice, quicker, interactive and better for all involved. Please do post what you pick up in those sessions here though for everyone's benefit. I just think with verbal give and take, it will go a lot faster. I think there is a three hour time difference between us as I am on the east coast, but as I now work from home like everyone else, I stay up later. IM me and we can work something out. Be happy to assist.
Carl
 

The Purist

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… <snip><<The 2 squads in OO12 declare 1 MF to load into LR(A)and they immediately drop down to the -1 level of the river. LR (A) expends 1 MF to un-Beach which puts the LR into hex NN10 with only 1 MP remaining.>>

Incorrect. The 1 MF to Load expends 1 of the Raft's MP's. See also E5.21 toward the bottom of the paragraph. By expending 1 MF to Load, you now have 3 MF to power the raft's Raft's 2 MP FRD. Per this rule, you now have 3 MF remaining and each one is used to power 1/4 the raft's remaining MP FRD. This leaves one and 1 half MP FRD to one. The FRD part is the key. So they get into the drink, but no farther, because in Dinant, it costs 1 MP to Launch as well. This means when crossing a 2 hex wide river on a 2MP Raft, if the Infantry did not begin the move Loaded, it is going to take you two turns to get across due to all Passengers only having 4MF in a turn where they Load/Unload to/from any transport. Rafts included.
See also the example at the bottom of Page E11 in the Pocket Rule Book. Read in a way, because the first couple of examples don't help, but by the end of the last sentence of the first paragraph you have hit paydirt…. <snip>
Ach!!! Of course. The un-Beaching is not Infantry MF, it's the vehicle's (Boats's) MP. Got it.

Will IM you re Skype or Zoom (I use Zoom but whatever). Also working from home and yes,... I'm in the Mountain Time Zone. Thanks for the support. I'll continue to post summaries once we've communicated.
 
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Carln0130

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Ach!!! Of course. The un-Beaching is not Infantry MF, it's the vehicle's (Boats's) MP. Got it.

Will IM you re Skype or Zoom (I use Zoom but whatever). Also working from home and yes,... I'm in the Mountain Time Zone. Thanks for the support. I'll continue to post summaries once we've communicated.
When I get a chance will IM over the Skype contact. Thanks.
 

Carln0130

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Guys posting this here for the obvious cross-reference. In the VASL subforum, the Dinant HASL map has been created. The extension is in the works.
Thanks
 

The Purist

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Last night, I spent a long while with one of the developers of the Dinant HASL module discussing a few additional clarifications regarding Pontoon and Ferry rules as well as a couple of more regarding terrain. After we wrapped it was suggested that some of these clarifications be posted in case they might help others who might have similar questions

The Ferry and Pulley Line rules (3.2 and 3.4 respectively) work pretty much as written. The important thing to remember is the extreme danger the AE MMCs face in setting up and operating these 'vehicles'.

On the surface the rules surrounding the use of Pontoons (3.6) and how they interact with the Ferry Construction (3.3) and Pontoon Bridges (3.5) seem complex but they really boil down to how you move (manhandle) the Pontoons. Pontoon sections, for obvious reasons, cannot enter woods or building so manhandling these from a vehicle in bypass is not allowed. Effectively, a Pontoon needs to be manhandled off a transport in open ground, shellholes, woods road, and orchard road or another pontoon section.

At first blush, the southern map area would seem critically short of such hexes and thus would seem to severely limit where a Ferry or Pontoon Bridge might be launched from. However, while a Pontoon/Ferry may need an open ground hex to start in, that is not the case for its final hex completing the Ferry or Pontoon Bridge. For example, if a Pontoon section were launched in hex PP39 and beached across OO40 using the hex grain PP39, OO40, NN40, it could terminate across the beachable hexsides MM41/NN40.

Vehicles exiting from the Ferry or Pontoon bridge over hexside MM41/NN40 would have to immediately enter bypass (2 x MP) but could then trundle up or down the road on their way to glory. This applies to Pulley Lines (3.4) as well, the two ends of the line must be anchored in hexes with beachable hexsides,... so attaching one end of the line to a building or trees appears acceptable.

One other item that was discussed was the art work along the -1 Water obstacles with large portions of green Level 0 artwork. Unlike the famous 7, 8 and 40 boards, there are many Water hexes with significant amounts of green that could raise questions about the crest lines impact on LOS. For example, the LOS from NN50 to OO50 would appear to have the level 0 crest line in OO50 block the LOS to the centre dot that defines the hex as Water. However, B21.2 holds true and that artwork does not block the LOS through the hex from the higher level an the entire hex is Level -1. The green artwork is there for aesthetic reasons and to give the Meuse it proper "shape". This means an LOS from MM41 to a Boat/Ferry/Pontoon is OO44 is clear.

One final point in the RePh 4.615 came up and that has a significant impact.

The phrase "...units and fortifications remain on the map in the Location and state they were in at the end of the previous CG Scenario except as altered during the RePh".

It turns out this means that Guns may not regain Hidden status even if in Concealment terrain. They can be concealed as per the 4.615 rules but none of the Guns on either side will start a sceanrio HIP unless they ended the last scenario HIP.

This was an "ahah" moment for me.

Cheers.
 
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sdennis

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One other item that was discussed was the art work along the -1 Water obstacles with large portions of green Level 0 artwork. Unlike the famous 7, 8 and 40 boards, there are many Water hexes with significant amounts of green that could raise questions about the crest lines impact on LOS. For example, the LOS from NN50 to OO50 would appear to have the level 0 crest line in OO50 block the LOS to the centre dot that defines the hex as Water. However, B21.2 holds true and that artwork does not block the LOS through the hex from the higher level an the entire hex is Level -1. The green artwork is there for aesthetic reasons and to give the Meuse it proper "shape". This means an LOS from MM41 to a Boat/Ferry/Pontoon is OO44 is clear.
So I'm struggling with the "aesthetic" nature of these lines too... where EXACTLY is the crest line? where drawn or hexside?

So for example think of some prime pillbox locations like MM54 (CA:NN52)? can it see along the hedge hexside in front of it all the way to QQ48?

What you describe above seems to imply the LOS is clear, it mirrors the M41->OO44 LOS above somewhat...

Anybody? Where is the rule reference about Aesthetic drawing? :)
 

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So for example think of some prime pillbox locations like MM54 (CA:NN52)? can it see along the hedge hexside in front of it all the way to QQ48?
Level 0 terrain in hex NN52 blocks LOS to Level -1 from MM54. I think B10.2 handles this LOS.
 

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That was my initial thought too but than he said he talked to one of the designers... Carl?
I think it's blocked - per the normal LOS rules.

I think it's akin to this LOS, which I believe is blocked by the Level 1 terrain hex R7. The Level 1 terrain in S7 does not block the LOS, per B10.2.

12590
 

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Huddling with Klas here. On account of I may have screwed up with that statement. Also, just to be clear, Klas played a big role with the rules too, especially down the stretch. Will get back momentarily.
 
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Carln0130

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Gentlemen, I huddled with Klas, and where I steered you wrong was the adjacent clause of B10.2, the latter part of the rule. I was extending that out to non-adjacent riverbank hexes and there I made my error. Apologies. I have one other player to catch up to and draw his attention to this. Sorry guys. Also, thank you Klas.

In short, Klas's answer is correct.
 

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So in summary, you can cross the same level in the adjacent hex ONLY because that hex is at level -1 and exempted by B10.2 but after that the level 0 terrain is level 0 and relevant as normal LOS.

And by that the drawn crest line is used for blind hex calculations from farther back on the hill...

That's how I was going to play it until the recent post.

Which means there are very few GOOD places for the pillboxes and those damn things are death traps anyhow...
 

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A couple of spots, but yes, no one in there gets back alive. Or at least it is tough to do so. There are a fair number of elevated spots for the French as well, but range becomes a consideration.

Thank God for Klas. Someone has to save me from myself when my wife is busy.
 

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Well,..... shoot. Ok, so be it. I'm not sure how much that would have changed my defence set up but it is what it is. As long as the LOS for hexesides such as MM40-MM39 and north to MM36 are not blocked by the green in MM39 (as per B10.2 adjacent) we should be good.

I'm thinking the crestline for rivers should have been drawn the same as for hills - the lower elevation water would intrude into the higher elevation land rather than the opposite.

But we're 40 odd years too late for that. :)
 
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