Dinant CG (Dennis Brothers)

sdennis

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They got it right by allowing the PBF, funky as it looks.
It is weird because if you're in the other cliff hex they don't get it but the height difference is the same... the path affects the bullets ability I guess? :) Or I suppose we could say it's an abstraction of some guys actually being part way up the path?? Who knows. That is same "letter of the law" we came to but it does seem wrong...
 

The Purist

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As PBF is only allowed from above I have no issue. It is the wording of "ADJACENT" and "either" that sets up the situation. The Chapter A footnote 8 also helps out by explaining that PBF would be allowed from above due the use of grenades, etc., but PBF "upwards" is not granted for the obvious reasons.
 
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sdennis

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As PBF is only allowed from above I have no issue. It is the wording of "ADJACENT" and "either" that sets up the situation. The Chapter A footnote 8 also helps out by explaining that PBF would be allowed from above due the use of grenades, etc., but PBF "upwards" is not granted for the obvious reasons.
But it apparently is if a path exists! or alpine hills exist...
 

The Purist

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I don't see A7.21's intent in allowing PBF "up" more the one elevation difference.

It's the chapter footnote (8) that tells me the 'intent' of the rule is that an elevation difference of more than one level precludes PBF "upwards" if the elevation is more than one level. Again,.... I don't think the concept of a 'Steep Trail' was in anyone's head when the rule was written.

There is a significant difference between a Factory Rooftop Access Point (a stairwell), within which combatants can fight at close range (within a flight or two), and a Steep Trail on a cliff face.

I would also argue that a Steep Trail along a cliff face and an Abrupt Elevation change are not synonymous. The Steep Trail is more analogous to the cliff than the hill.

One can move up an Abrupt Elevation with a leader or via Double Time, still have MF left over to descend two levels on the other side into a second hex and then advance into a third hex all in one turn. One could even Assault Move up an Abrupt Elevation with an Leader and then Advance all without a CX marker being placed.

The Steep Trail costs ALL +COT, is Hazardous Movement, CXs and Pins the moving unit (no Advance). The difference between this and a hill or stairwell is significant and I don't believe they can be considered the same in regards to PBF. More so when the Chapter A note 8 is taken into consideration.
 
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sdennis

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Honestly, I think you can argue it many ways BUT the way the rules are written ADJACENT applies with the steep trail therefore it's allowed AS WRITTEN.

WOuld I accept a Q&A that removed the PBF UP a steep > 1 level trail? sure.

But until than I'll play it as written.
 

klasmalmstrom

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It's only a single hexside on the map, correct? (I am not counting the one on the east side, as I don't see that coming into play very often.
 

The Purist

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Gents,... that box belonging to Pandora has been opened (cat's out of the the bag, whatever). ? We now have an example of a Steep Trail in the ASL Canon documents. Who is to say what may show up on future maps or CG modules. I think this terrain type was a piece of brilliant detail added to the Dinant map, having a rule that compliments its unique nature should not be seen as a crisis.

This doesn't require throwing out the rule book to remain 'logical'.

For example:

Add - DN2.631: In an Exception to A7.21, despite a higher elevation across a Steep Trail hexside being ADJACENT, fire attacks versus a Location 1 or more levels above the firer's Location are not eligible for PBF.
A simple errata/addition for this terrain type. No fuss, no muss.

One could even reference Chapter A footote 8 if so desired. If you think about it, one doesn't throw grenades 'up' a cliff any more than one throws a DC to an upper level hill or through the window of a level 2 building. If WP grenades can create trouble for a thrower up one level imagine what a half dozen fragmentation grenades could do when you try to toss them up two levels of a cliff. :eek:

Cheers.
 
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Carln0130

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Gents,... that box belonging to Pandora has been opened (cat's out of the the bag, whatever). ? We now have an example of a Steep Trail in the ASL Canon documents. Who is to say what may show up on future maps or CG modules. I think this terrain type was a piece of brilliant detail added to the Dinant map, having a rule that compliments its unique nature should not be seen as a crisis.

This doesn't require throwing out the rule book to remain 'logical'.

For example:



A simple errata/addition for this terrain type. No fuss, no muss.

One could even reference Chapter A footote 8 if so desired. If you think about it, one doesn't throw grenades 'up' a cliff any more than one throws a DC to an upper level hill or through the window of a level 2 building. If WP grenades can create trouble for a thrower up one level imagine what a half dozen fragmentation grenades could do when you try to toss them up two levels of a cliff. :eek:

Cheers.
Well, again Gerry, the same thing exists for Abrupt Elevations, so it is not unprecedented. Certainly if similar terrain comes along in the future, one can definitely make that call.
 

sdennis

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So I called for a short session this weekend and we only got through 2 bottles of wine (Daou 2018 cab and Wyncroft Shou blend) and we finished both turn 6s.

In the draw he continues to get lucky. The disadvantage of playing only once a week is he sits at home reading the rulebook and forum to find ways to screw me...
Rolling ANOTHER 1,1 in CC to get ANOTHER 8-1 at the point of the sword is how he rolls too...
He also found some forum discussion saying his guys I trapped against the cliff can bypass the woods because the cliff artwork doesn't matter! Thanks Klas!!
My expensive 150OBA got one harassing fire mission down, didn't really do anything and then I failed the next draw and he broke my observer. the mmg stack at the front is 3 squads all with mgs who advanced to that location INSIDE the OBA w/ no bad affects AT ALL...
I did have one "equal" spate of good rolls over here and got all of a PTC for it. Davy Crockett with one of my 412 inf guns over here shoots at infantry, 1,1 (no crit), NE, 1,2, NE, 2,1 PTC... than miss...

He has at least 35-40 squads over here and I have nothing of any weight to stop them... not sure that night is going to help at all.

14110

At the entrance to the draw we see most everyone has crossed. My lone plane kept people from crossing the bridge or building another but my juicy target was taken away because he read that he could shoot smoke ONTO a pontoon bridge... plane ended up doing nothing but being a threat. I had 2 inf guns on the ridge they both survived and missed w/o rate again... and smoke is making them not too likely to hit anything of importance. but at this point I would settle for hitting the ACs on my side of the river.
14111

Under the trench I grabbed my long abandoned 25LL with a 227 :) not sure how that shot will be but I'm out of options. I don't htink anyone is climbing here and exiting for serious points. So let's see what we can kill before we die.

14112

And a quick photo of the forgotten front, you can just make out my long distance 25LL that broke on an IF shot I took just because... he was hitting most what he shot but the penetration drops real quick for these guys down here. The other thing of note is my 8-1, hmgx2 finally made an appearance to get into position for night, took a shot at a truck with pontoons and promptly rolled an 11 to break one of them. they are under the trench at the point of the cliff. Hopefully he can cover any new bridge he wants to throw up over here. the real battle is too far away for them I think.
14113
 

Carln0130

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<<but my juicy target was taken away because he read that he could shoot smoke ONTO a pontoon bridge. >>

Remember any Construction Inside a Smoke Counter suffers adverse + DRM equal to the penalty for firing out of said Smoke. The Smoke on the bank won't impact that , as it is above the Bridge, The Smoke on the Bridge though is an issue. They are targeted for fire as if in the water hex, but the Smoke in their hex still impacts their construction.
 

sdennis

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yep, but he did that rather than suffer a clean bomb attack :)

We did have a related question for Rommel. If the construction is taking place where the section is beached (i.e. in the water) and the water hex is 3 hexes away but the shore hex where the infantry physically is, does the -2 for Rommel count?
 

Carln0130

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yep, but he did that rather than suffer a clean bomb attack :)

We did have a related question for Rommel. If the construction is taking place where the section is beached (i.e. in the water) and the water hex is 3 hexes away but the shore hex where the infantry physically is, does the -2 for Rommel count?
They are considered in the drink for targeting only. So to the bridge.
 

Den589

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<<but my juicy target was taken away because he read that he could shoot smoke ONTO a pontoon bridge. >>

Remember any Construction Inside a Smoke Counter suffers adverse + DRM equal to the penalty for firing out of said Smoke. The Smoke on the bank won't impact that , as it is above the Bridge, The Smoke on the Bridge though is an issue. They are targeted for fire as if in the water hex, but the Smoke in their hex still impacts their construction.
Yeah, I struggled with this for awhile since this two turn delay due to the smoke being on the bridge (unless I roll really low), means that i will be under ammo shortage level 1 yet again on the west bank. Avoiding the bomb and the collapse of the bridge forcing me to restart bridge construction though was too big of a risk so I'll take the night scenario with ammo shortage, but I should have 3-5 bridges done by the end of the night scenario and not have any problems on the last scenario.

Me and Steve again discussed this weekend how up and down both of our emotions have been in this CG. He is under the impression that he is screwed at this point of the CG, but I think I'm behind my time table as well. We think that goes to show how well this CG is put together, since most of our CG's (we almost exclusively play CG's now) don't last to the bitter end due to them becoming pretty lopsided one way or the other.
 

Den589

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We should finish the evening scenario this weekend and be preparing for the night scenario while on a two week hiatus after that.
 

Carln0130

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We should finish the evening scenario this weekend and be preparing for the night scenario while on a two week hiatus after that.
Appreciate you guys sharing all this.
 
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