Detection Question

[sfcmikej]

Hey all,

Playing a night PTO scenario. The Japanese attacker is cloaked and the American defender has HIP units. Of course, according to the night rules there are dummies. Since the defending Americans are lax the exception for HIP units to retain HIP when an enemy unit enters the hex as per G.4 does not apply. Reading through A12.15 my understanding of dummy on dummy or dummy on HIP contact is that the defender can ask the attacker to momentarily reveal an actual unit before the defender drops concealment. In the event that the attacker is a dummy then the attacker's dummy is removed and the defender remains concealed and did not have to reveal an actual unit. When a unit enters a HIP location then the HIP unit is placed on board concealed and the defender can ask that the attacker reveal an actual unit before he reveals his unit. If the attacker is a dummy then the HIP unit is not revealed at all and remains on the board concealed. Of course in the event that the attacker is an actual unit and the defender is a dummy then the defender's dummy is removed and in the event they are both real units then at least one of the defender's unit will be reveal as will the attacker and the attacker is repulsed back to the hex he came from.

Hopefully I have this correct. My biggest concern is that it seems mighty sleazy to use a dummy cloaking counter to scout for and reveal a HIP unit. Even if he retains his concealed status and doesn't have to show anything I will know that he is a real unit.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[klasmalmstrom]

When a unit enters a HIP location then the HIP unit is placed on board concealed and the defender can ask that the attacker reveal an actual unit before he reveals his unit.

I don't think the hidden unit comes onboard in this situation. The ATTACKER would need to prove the unit entering is not a Dummy first.

Hopefully I have this correct. My biggest concern is that it seems mighty sleazy to use a dummy cloaking counter to scout for and reveal a HIP unit.

Well, it one less Cloaking counter to worry about. Plus if you have Fortifications, what is in there isn't necessarily known.

It's just something one needs to take into account when setting up a defense at Night.

 

[sfcmikej]

Thanks Klas, much appreciated.

Mike

 

[EagleIV]

Klas has it correct, and the Defender does not need to even say that there is a HIP unit there, just something that the Attacker stumbled on. It could be a minefield, Wire or something else.

 

[Larry]

Klas has it correct,

That is not surprising.

and the Defender does not need to even say that there is a HIP unit there, just something that the Attacker stumbled on. It could be a minefield, Wire or something else.

So the Attacker gets intel that the map has something in that location and loses his dummy? The Defender discloses what was in the location if the cloaking counter represents a real unit?

Night ... the rules have left me in the dark.

 

[EagleIV]

Or at least some of what is there will be revealed per the normal Detection rules if the Attacker is real.

 

[PresterJohn]

Should there be a special rule in some OoBs to give the defender some HIP dummies too, to pad out the uncertainty and fog of war.

 

[Wayne]

When a unit enters a HIP location then the HIP unit is placed on board concealed ... in the event that the attacker is an actual unit and the defender is a dummy then the defender's dummy is removed.

Dummies may not be HIP.

1.2 SCENARIO DEFENDER: The Scenario Defender in a night scenario may use HIP to set up 25% (FRU) of his onboard squad-equivalents (using squads and HS only [EXC: Japanese include crew MMC also]) and any SMC/SW that set(s) up with them in the same Location.

Should there be a special rule in some OoBs to give the defender some HIP dummies too, to pad out the uncertainty and fog of war.

The notion has merit academically but the practicality is that it would be a challenging SSR to write, as it'd open a can of worms, rules-wise. I'd likely pass on such a headache card.

Re the rules as write, day or Night, Dummies may not be HIP (ever).

A12.11 & A12.3

Can a stack of two “?” counters use HIP as if they were an emplaced gun and a crew? A. No; Dummies may not set up HIP.

Designers will SSR as they will but there are other ways to make a scenario entertaining, I suggest.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

What about if a dummy stack sets up inside a pillbox? - can't be hidden per B30.7?

Is there an exception for Dummy stacks that set up in Caves/Cave-Complexes? (I seem to recall they setup hidden, but I could be remembering wrong.)

 

[Wayne]

What about if a dummy stack sets up inside a pillbox? - can't be hidden per B30.7?

There are a lot of ways to get a ?-stack into a Pillbox.

I'm not reading in B30.7 that setting up a Dummy there HIP is one of them.

Are you suggesting that 2x 5/8-in ? may set up HIP in the "Concealment terrain" that is a Pillbox? If Yes, we've got some kinda-broken contravening Q&A. And given that ?-size is generally a no-matter, a Yes would apply too to smaller-size ? chits too, I infer.

Is there an exception for Dummy stacks that set up in Caves/Cave-Complexes? (I seem to recall they setup hidden, but I could be remembering wrong.)

IDK. Without comment, I'll leave that rules-dive to those who know Cave rules. But given the blanket Q&A assertion, my steep guess would be No.

C.f. ASL_QA_Total-v29-v22-v22 page 42

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I'm not reading in B30.7 that setting up a Dummy there HIP is one of them.

Are you suggesting that 2x 5/8-in ? may set up HIP in the "Concealment terrain" that is a Pillbox?

I am not suggesting anything, I was merely asking if B30.7 perhaps allows it?
"If a pillbox sets up hidden, so do its contents."


..and same for Caves and Cave Complexes:
G11.1: "Only Infantry-(including Dummies)/SW/a-non-vehicular-Gun may be set up in a cave."

G11.2: "Only Infantry-(including Dummies)/SW/non-vehicular-Gun(s) may be set up in a Cave Complex."

G11.3 HIP: Cave counters, as well as their contents, are always considered to be in Concealment Terrain regardless of the other terrain in their hex and always set up hidden.... ...Cave Complexes and their contents always set up hidden...."


Never thought about it before....perhaps setting up a dummy stack hidden in a pillbox would have limited use anyway.....perhaps possibly more useful in a Cave (if allowed).

 

[Wayne]

Never thought about it before....perhaps setting up a dummy stack hidden in a pillbox would have limited use anyway.....perhaps possibly more useful in a Cave (if allowed).

I was scratching my head re any practical value of a HIP Dummy in a PB too.

 

[Doug Leslie]

I am not suggesting anything, I was merely asking if B30.7 perhaps allows it?
"If a pillbox sets up hidden, so do its contents."


..and same for Caves and Cave Complexes:
G11.1: "Only Infantry-(including Dummies)/SW/a-non-vehicular-Gun may be set up in a cave."

G11.2: "Only Infantry-(including Dummies)/SW/non-vehicular-Gun(s) may be set up in a Cave Complex."

G11.3 HIP: Cave counters, as well as their contents, are always considered to be in Concealment Terrain regardless of the other terrain in their hex and always set up hidden.... ...Cave Complexes and their contents always set up hidden...."


Never thought about it before....perhaps setting up a dummy stack hidden in a pillbox would have limited use anyway.....perhaps possibly more useful in a Cave (if allowed).

The "(including Dummies)" entries for G11.1 and 11.2 were added in Journal 10. Clearly dummies can set up HIP in caves and cave complexes as a result. It isn't too difficult to come up with situations where this might be useful, particularly when they start in a complex.

With regard to pillboxes, the Q&A seems to be the only reason why dummies might not be allowed to set up HIP in them. What isn't clear to me is the basis for the answer given. I think that it is correct as far as it goes with regard to prohibiting dummies setting up HIP to simulate a gun and crew but it then makes a general statement that goes beyond what the relevant rules actually say. A12.3 states "A SSR may allow HIP for one or more units". The definition of "unit" includes dummy stacks. If dummy stacks can't be set up HIP, it seems to me that this should have been dealt with by way of an errata rather than a Q&A. Without the Q&A, the rules read to me that setting up a dummy stack in a pillbox should be permissible.

As for whether this is something that might be useful, I guess that hiding dummy stacks inside pillboxes could mislead a counter counting opponent into believing that the concealed stacks in his view are weaker than they actually are. A dummy stack could emerge from a hidden pillbox in a PTO scenario after enemy units have passed by and draw attention away from real units. In the right location, it could also emerge to prevent enemy units from gaining concealment. There will no doubt be other possible deception possibilities.

 

[EagleIV]

I was scratching my head re any practical value of a HIP Dummy in a PB too.

The practical value of a Dummy in a PB (if it were allowed) would be to move it out of the PB (and effectively reveal the PB) in the middle/late part of a scenario where the action is elsewhere and having the dummy draw fire or a sniper as it pretends to get in a useful position for the end of the game.

 

[Wayne]

The practical value of a Dummy in a PB (if it were allowed) would be to move it out of the PB (and effectively reveal the PB) in the middle/late part of a scenario where the action is elsewhere and having the dummy draw fire or a sniper as it pretends to get in a useful position for the end of the game.

The notion has likable academic appeal (and for style points), though I steeply suspect the weight of that value never equals or exceeds the value of having a given capability to HIP a real unit?

 

[EagleIV]

The notion has likable academic appeal (and for style points), though I steeply suspect the weight of that value never equals or exceeds the value of having a given capability to HIP a real unit?

I was thinking of a situation where the OOB gives you a 2+x+x PB and you want to put only 1 real unit in it and it is on one side of the battlefield (maybe with another PB on the other side of the battlefield.

I do agree it isn't likely to happen unless you set it up to happen.

 

[von Marwitz]

I was scratching my head re any practical value of a HIP Dummy in a PB too.

How about this one?

You set up a HIP Dummy in a Pillbox in PTO, which makes it a Bunker with a Tunnel.
Make that an "offensive" Tunnel leading towards the front rather than the rear.
You have the Japanese and your force is Stealthy.
All this stuff is yet HIP.

Your American adversaries are lumbering through the apparently empty Jungle, they are not yet near the "danger zone" where the action is likely to start, thus they merrily go CX.

Next Japanese Turn, your HIP Dummy uses the Tunnel to be placed beneath the CX, possibly even unconcealed Americans. The Dummy can't be attacked yet, but he is ready to emerge in its APh threatening the Americans with CC and Ambush.

If the Dummy were a real Japanese squad, this could end up rather nasty for the Americans.

I have seen a US killer-stack voluntarily break with the fear of God having been put into it rather than to face CC with that Dummy. The G.I.s routed away. The Japanese Dummy advanced out, looking as menacing as ever, not being revealed in CC because there was no enemy unit left in the hex.

von Marwitz

 

[Paul John]

How about this one?

Now those are some style points!