Destroying an Anti-Tank Ditch

ironmike1944

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Fellow ASL'ers,

How does one destroy an Anti-Tank Ditch in ASL? Can a player set a Demo Charge and blow it up and roll a KIA Result on the IFT Table or Destroy it using OBA and Rolling a KIA on the IFT Table with 150mm or greater strength. Could you please quote chapter an verse. Getting ready to play OtO4 "Funnel of Death".

Sincerely:
 

JR Brackin

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Usually BFP has rules covering A-T ditches in their games, however, I am not aware of a method using standard ASL rules.
 

WuWei

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Fascines carried by a British Churchill AVRE (vehicle note 37) is the only possibility that comes to my mind.
 

Jazz

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Ever try to get rid of a wall or a hedge?
 

Yuri0352

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Fellow ASL'ers,

How does one destroy an Anti-Tank Ditch in ASL? Can a player set a Demo Charge and blow it up and roll a KIA Result on the IFT Table or Destroy it using OBA and Rolling a KIA on the IFT Table with 150mm or greater strength. Could you please quote chapter an verse. Getting ready to play OtO4 "Funnel of Death".

Sincerely:
COWTRA
There is nothing listed in Chapter B27 regarding the destruction of Anti-Tank (A-T) Ditches (or any other type of entrenchment for that matter). As far as I can tell, the only allowed method of 'altering' the characteristics of an A-T Ditch is through the use of a Fascine as described within British vehicle note 37. Basically, note 37 describes the procedure for bridging an A-T Ditch to allow vehicular travel rather than causing the ditches' actual destruction.

I would recommend that you examine a few of the many photos of actual A-T Ditches from the Second World War for an appreciation of the size of these fortifications. Clearly, these 'ditches' could only be eliminated through the use of extensive engineering operations requiring the use of earthmoving vehicles, which is certainly beyond the scope of the time frame of an ASL scenario.

On a side note, as one who has enjoyed playing OtO4 'Funnel of Death", the Soviet player will likely find that the OB-given 4 OBA modules are barely adequate for reducing the massive, in-depth German fortifications.
 

Vinnie

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COWTRA
There is nothing listed in Chapter B27 regarding the destruction of Anti-Tank (A-T) Ditches (or any other type of entrenchment for that matter). As far as I can tell, the only allowed method of 'altering' the characteristics of an A-T Ditch is through the use of a Fascine as described within British vehicle note 37. Basically, note 37 describes the procedure for bridging an A-T Ditch to allow vehicular travel rather than causing the ditches' actual destruction.

I would recommend that you examine a few of the many photos of actual A-T Ditches from the Second World War for an appreciation of the size of these fortifications. Clearly, these 'ditches' could only be eliminated through the use of extensive engineering operations requiring the use of earthmoving vehicles, which is certainly beyond the scope of the time frame of an ASL scenario.

On a side note, as one who has enjoyed playing OtO4 'Funnel of Death", the Soviet player will likely find that the OB-given 4 OBA modules are barely adequate for reducing the massive, in-depth German fortifications.
Reach the shellholes section.

Original KIA result during a PFPh/DFPh resolution of a Concentrated HE FFE (or aerial bomb/rocket) attack of ≥ 150mm. Such placement removes all entrenchment counters in that hex


That will remove an AT ditch as they are treated as trenches which are a form of entrenchment.
 

Robin Reeve

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I read somewhere that a squad which goes TI for 256 Game Turns can destroy an AT-Ditch.
 

Eagle4ty

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COWTRA
There is nothing listed in Chapter B27 regarding the destruction of Anti-Tank (A-T) Ditches (or any other type of entrenchment for that matter). As far as I can tell, the only allowed method of 'altering' the characteristics of an A-T Ditch is through the use of a Fascine as described within British vehicle note 37. Basically, note 37 describes the procedure for bridging an A-T Ditch to allow vehicular travel rather than causing the ditches' actual destruction.

I would recommend that you examine a few of the many photos of actual A-T Ditches from the Second World War for an appreciation of the size of these fortifications. Clearly, these 'ditches' could only be eliminated through the use of extensive engineering operations requiring the use of earthmoving vehicles, which is certainly beyond the scope of the time frame of an ASL scenario.

On a side note, as one who has enjoyed playing OtO4 'Funnel of Death", the Soviet player will likely find that the OB-given 4 OBA modules are barely adequate for reducing the massive, in-depth German fortifications.
Earth moving vehicles (e.g. Dozers) cannot breach these either. However, as a reality argument a squad of men with E-Tools (entrenching-tools) were expected to create a one vehicle wide breach in the average A-T Ditch (e.g. not reinforced with concrete, logs, etc.) in about 10-15 minutes. There is also anecdotal evidence by reports from the LSSAH & DR divisions that a similar breach of a massive A-T ditch was conducted by pioneer & infantry elements on the Prokhorovka battlefield. I also believe the GD Div performed a similar breach "on-the-fly" in their efforts to thrust towards Obyan. In their advance thru Eastern Prussia the Soviets were known to carry logs on the back deck of their tanks to provide a hasty fascine as well and there are several pictures available to verify this practise, Either way a good candidate for an SSR where more information is known about the type of A-T-Ditches encountered.
 

von Marwitz

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Earth moving vehicles (e.g. Dozers) cannot breach these either. However, as a reality argument a squad of men with E-Tools (entrenching-tools) were expected to create a one vehicle wide breach in the average A-T Ditch (e.g. not reinforced with concrete, logs, etc.) in about 10-15 minutes. There is also anecdotal evidence by reports from the LSSAH & DR divisions that a similar breach of a massive A-T ditch was conducted by pioneer & infantry elements on the Prokhorovka battlefield. I also believe the GD Div performed a similar breach "on-the-fly" in their efforts to thrust towards Obyan. In their advance thru Eastern Prussia the Soviets were known to carry logs on the back deck of their tanks to provide a hasty fascine as well and there are several pictures available to verify this practise, Either way a good candidate for an SSR where more information is known about the type of A-T-Ditches encountered.
I think the way it was done historically on the fly was to blow up the banks/berms of the AT-ditch on both sides so that they became 'fordable' at that point. Each bank/berm would become lower by the explosion and some of the earth would be blown into the AT-ditch. Then a couple of logs (sometimes carried on the deck by standard), so that the tanks would not sink too deep into the loose earth.

von Marwitz
 
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Peter J

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Earth moving vehicles (e.g. Dozers) cannot breach these either. However, as a reality argument a squad of men with E-Tools (entrenching-tools) were expected to create a one vehicle wide breach in the average A-T Ditch (e.g. not reinforced with concrete, logs, etc.) in about 10-15 minutes. There is also anecdotal evidence by reports from the LSSAH & DR divisions that a similar breach of a massive A-T ditch was conducted by pioneer & infantry elements on the Prokhorovka battlefield. I also believe the GD Div performed a similar breach "on-the-fly" in their efforts to thrust towards Obyan. In their advance thru Eastern Prussia the Soviets were known to carry logs on the back deck of their tanks to provide a hasty fascine as well and there are several pictures available to verify this practise, Either way a good candidate for an SSR where more information is known about the type of A-T-Ditches encountered.
G15.21 allows a bulldozer/tankdozer to use 'clearance' (B24.7) to eliminate a pillbox/entrenchment counter...
 

Russ Isaia

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COWTRA
There is nothing listed in Chapter B27 regarding the destruction of Anti-Tank (A-T) Ditches (or any other type of entrenchment for that matter). As far as I can tell, the only allowed method of 'altering' the characteristics of an A-T Ditch is through the use of a Fascine as described within British vehicle note 37. Basically, note 37 describes the procedure for bridging an A-T Ditch to allow vehicular travel rather than causing the ditches' actual destruction.

I would recommend that you examine a few of the many photos of actual A-T Ditches from the Second World War for an appreciation of the size of these fortifications. Clearly, these 'ditches' could only be eliminated through the use of extensive engineering operations requiring the use of earthmoving vehicles, which is certainly beyond the scope of the time frame of an ASL scenario.

On a side note, as one who has enjoyed playing OtO4 'Funnel of Death", the Soviet player will likely find that the OB-given 4 OBA modules are barely adequate for reducing the massive, in-depth German fortifications.
See B2.1. Newly created shellholes eliminate all entrenchments.

Edit: Appropriately enough, the text is "removes all entrenchments counters."
 
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Yuri0352

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However, as a reality argument a squad of men with E-Tools (entrenching-tools) were expected to create a one vehicle wide breach in the average A-T Ditch (e.g. not reinforced with concrete, logs, etc.) in about 10-15 minutes.
I guess it depends upon one's definition of a breach. IMO, it would seem more practical to 'fill in' an A-T Ditch with earth or other material than it would to use explosives to enlarge or collapse it. Of course, I have never been a combat engineer or construction worker.

A couple of questions regarding the above quote...
Which army had the expectation of a squad breaching an A-T ditch in 10-15 minutes with E-tools?
What is an "average A-T Ditch"? In general that is, not just in ASL game terms.
 
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