Designers: Is the bypass sleaze freeze essential to your designs?

Mister T

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Bruxelles
Country
llFrance
One particularly excellent way to reduce the sleeze factor is to allocate a few Optional PF to late-war Germans. The best example from our side is "Bite of the Bassotto", where the Fallschirmjaeger have few troops at start, but may freely deploy and have 2 optional PF. The New Zealand AFV are Staghounds (large targets), which means that if you would cruise the big armored car into bypass of a 2-3-8, he might just have a pre-recorded PF ready for you. And hits you on a 9 in motion (7 avoiding backblast in building).

That is a pretty solid deterrent, I would think.
I quite agree, this is a good remedy.
The only problem with this optional rule is when the PF-holding squad/HS suffers ELR/BH/create a hero/leader, you should adjust the recording on paper, which is not good for fog of war in tournaments. Sometimes one can forget to adjust the recording in the heat of battle (it happened to me).
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
4,285
Reaction score
337
Location
Cadiz
First name
Miguel
Country
llSpain
IMO not applying +2 for motion or a -1/-2 modifier similar to DRM for using trailbreak, because of the so limited space for manuevering- an a favourable DRM for PAATC -maybe -2... because of so low risk to attack this AFV - would be enough to think twice before to enter to freeze any enemy hex using Bypass. And also to staying there in next CC.. -ambush, -1 or -2 per limited space -like trailbreak-, guarantee a destroyed AFV..-
Miguel
 

wrongway149

Forum Guru
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
9,405
Reaction score
2,101
Location
Willoughby, Ohio
Country
llUnited States
I think the key thing for designers is not to include many "worthless" AFV in a scenario, without giving the defender something to fight them with. That is the problem in Polish Requiem.
I agree- this is why I am frequently adding SSRs like :

'Halftracks without passengers are immedietley recalled. '
 

wrongway149

Forum Guru
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
9,405
Reaction score
2,101
Location
Willoughby, Ohio
Country
llUnited States
I think the key thing for designers is not to include many "worthless" AFV in a scenario, without giving the defender something to fight them with. That is the problem in Polish Requiem.

.
One good early-war scenario that featrues 'sleaze-freeze' and how to defeat it is SP 48 Orlik and the Uhlans.
The Germans have plenty of attacking tanks, but need to save some for EVP. The Pole has a few guns and enough squads for the occasional reaction fire. Play this one, you can see the tactic in all it's glory as well as it's 'oops' factor when you flip your panzer counters!:cry:
 

Roy

Living in Brownbackistan
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
1,347
Reaction score
643
Location
Wichita
Country
llUnited States
I don't think it should be referred to as "sleaze" anymore. It seems to be just another tactic that is used very regularly. It happens in virtually every game I play with vehicles, either by me or against me. Sometimes not until the endgame, when you simply have to get in or past that particular building that's got you hung up or is required for victory.

It should be playtested in every scenario with vehicles, if warranted.....

Roy
 

Spencer Armstrong

Canard de Guerre
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8,624
Reaction score
1,682
Location
Gainesville, FL
First name
Spencer
Country
llUnited States
I don't think it should be referred to as "sleaze" anymore.
It never should have been. :rolleyes: Not only is the very idea silly, but it has been mentioned here (by Gary F IIRC) that it was known and used from early by the designers and playtesters.

S
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,288
Reaction score
941
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
It never should have been. :rolleyes: Not only is the very idea silly, but it has been mentioned here (by Gary F IIRC) that it was known and used from early by the designers and playtesters.

S

Its called sleaze because very few WWII Tankers would have done it. At least none of the ones I used to talk to (asking stupid wargaming related questions). I am fine with it in the game as its a game:smoke:

As an aside, I dealt with a group of 100 volunteers in my last job and met (and talked to at length) the following:

-a RAF Pilot who flew from 1941 until being shot down and captured in 1945

-Commander of a M10 (the guy I asked about bypass, he laughed out loud)

-Commander of a Sherman (I asked him if he ever went up against any Tigers or Panters and he looked me dead in the eye and said "am I sitting here talking to you? no I did not. When we saw those tanks with the telephone sticking out the front, we got the hell out of there"

-the guy in charge of a the depth charge rack on a Fletcher class DD

-a P38 pilot

-a guy in charge of 3 (I think it was 3) 81mm MTRs

-numerous foot soldiers and sailors.

They were truly an amazing bunch. Sadly many if not all of them have passed on to greener pastures.:salute:

Peace

Roger
 
Last edited:

Spencer Armstrong

Canard de Guerre
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8,624
Reaction score
1,682
Location
Gainesville, FL
First name
Spencer
Country
llUnited States
Its called sleaze because very few WWII Tankers would have done it. At least none of the ones I used to talk to (asking stupid wargaming related questions). I am fine with it in the game as its a game:smoke:
I dislike the term "sleaze" because in the mouths of many who use it, it implies you're doing something wrong using it (I know this is not your POV, Roger). I embrace all game tactics, viewing ASL as a game primarily (and exclusively once a die drops).

As an aside, I dealt with a group of 100 volunteers in my last job and met (and talked to at length) the following:

-a RAF Pilot who flew from 1941 until being shot down and captured in 1945
-Commander of a M10 (the guy I asked about bypass, he laughed out loud)
-Commander of a Sherman
-the guy in charge of a the depth charge rack on a Fletcher class DD
-a P38 pilot
-a guy in charge of 3 (I think it was 3) 81mm MTRs
-numerous foot soldiers and sailors.

They were truly an amazing bunch. Sadly many if not all of them have passed on to greener pastures.:salute:

Peace

Roger
:salute: indeed.

S
 

Mister T

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Bruxelles
Country
llFrance
Being a non-native speaker, I don't know whether the term "sleaze" is too harsh or not, but I like to see ASL as having a least some tenuous link with the reality and therefore I'm not so happy with the VBM. But it's a matter of perception.
In addition the risk-reward ratio is much too high from a pure gaming point of view (you get large benefits at too low a cost).
If you want to freeze them, OVR them! that would be fair.
 

Spencer Armstrong

Canard de Guerre
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8,624
Reaction score
1,682
Location
Gainesville, FL
First name
Spencer
Country
llUnited States
Being a non-native speaker, I don't know whether the term "sleaze" is too harsh or not, but I like to see ASL as having a least some tenuous link with the reality and therefore I'm not so happy with the VBM. But it's a matter of perception.
In addition the risk-reward ratio is much too high from a pure gaming point of view (you get large benefits at too low a cost).
If you want to freeze them, OVR them! that would be fair.
Calling something I did "sleazy" in any non-game context would probably cause me to demand an apology and be tempted to fisticuffs. But that's not even the main point, the main point is that the comment is directed at a player, not the game in many instances. I actually have very little opinion on the reality arguments surrounding VBM Freeze (yes, there is something I have little opinion on. ;)) It's the implication that I, as a player, have done something wrong while staying within the rules. Unwritten rules are signs of poor designs, poor players or both and I strongly avoid both games and players that feel a need for them.

S
 

Fort

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
5,867
Reaction score
1,509
Location
virginia
Country
llUnited States
-Commander of a M10 (the guy I asked about bypass, he laughed out loud)
A TD commander would have a very different view of closing with infantry. I can give you literally hundreds of accounts of tanks doing just this...closing to such close quarters with enemy infantry that they were unable or unwilling to fire on the infantry following up the tanks.
 

wrongway149

Forum Guru
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
9,405
Reaction score
2,101
Location
Willoughby, Ohio
Country
llUnited States
A TD commander would have a very different view of closing with infantry. I can give you literally hundreds of accounts of tanks doing just this...closing to such close quarters with enemy infantry that they were unable or unwilling to fire on the infantry following up the tanks.
I've ready many accounts of overunning AT guns being the most effective way of dealing with them. ASL might even give the edge to the gun, with DI and all.
 

Pitman

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
14,104
Reaction score
2,371
Location
Columbus, OH
Country
llUnited States
Many of the people who complain about an alleged lack of "reality" to bypass sleaze fail to take into account that movement is considered essentially simultaneous in ASL, even though units are moved sequentially for the most part.
 

Fort

Elder Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
5,867
Reaction score
1,509
Location
virginia
Country
llUnited States
I've ready many accounts of overunning AT guns being the most effective way of dealing with them. ASL might even give the edge to the gun, with DI and all.
Absolutely.

Many of the people who complain about an alleged lack of "reality" to bypass sleaze fail to take into account that movement is considered essentially simultaneous in ASL, even though units are moved sequentially for the most part.
Agree.
 

James Taylor

I love women with brains
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
6,486
Reaction score
377
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
Calling something I did "sleazy" in any non-game context would probably cause me to demand an apology and be tempted to fisticuffs. But that's not even the main point, the main point is that the comment is directed at a player, not the game in many instances. I actually have very little opinion on the reality arguments surrounding VBM Freeze (yes, there is something I have little opinion on. ;)) It's the implication that I, as a player, have done something wrong while staying within the rules. Unwritten rules are signs of poor designs, poor players or both and I strongly avoid both games and players that feel a need for them.

S
Armstrong.... you *might* be taking things just a bit too seriously--- (fisticuffs?) it is a game after all. Or maybe I'm just used to their being copious amounts of trash-talking going on when I'm playing. I wouldn't hesitate to accuse one of my regular opponents of "sleazing" me by locking a guy up with VBM... and they wouldn't hesitate to accuse me of the same if the shoe were on the other foot.

To be honest--- this would be a relatively benign comment at the annual "To The Last Man" playing at ASLOk... where its more about who can deliver the best trash-talk rather than the results on the board.

"VBM Sleaze": Its just part of the game---- at least for now anyways--- and I for one would be suprised if it was removed. At some point you just get over the angst and play on.

I'm just sayin'

JT
 

AZslim

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Messages
3,495
Reaction score
606
Location
Joe's garage
Country
llUnited States
Armstrong.... you *might* be taking things just a bit too seriously--- (fisticuffs?) it is a game after all. Or maybe I'm just used to their being copious amounts of trash-talking going on when I'm playing. I wouldn't hesitate to accuse one of my regular opponents of "sleazing" me by locking a guy up with VBM... and they wouldn't hesitate to accuse me of the same if the shoe were on the other foot.

To be honest--- this would be a relatively benign comment at the annual "To The Last Man" playing at ASLOk... where its more about who can deliver the best trash-talk rather than the results on the board.

"VBM Sleaze": Its just part of the game---- at least for now anyways--- and I for one would be suprised if it was removed. At some point you just get over the angst and play on.

I'm just sayin'

JT
How long did you play before you knew about it?
 

Psycho

Elder Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
15,445
Reaction score
1,509
Location
rectum
Country
llUkraine
To be honest--- this would be a relatively benign comment at the annual "To The Last Man" playing at ASLOk... where its more about who can deliver the best trash-talk rather than the results on the board.
DeYoung would do very well to play in that. :thumup:
 

Spencer Armstrong

Canard de Guerre
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8,624
Reaction score
1,682
Location
Gainesville, FL
First name
Spencer
Country
llUnited States
Armstrong.... you *might* be taking things just a bit too seriously--- (fisticuffs?) it is a game after all. Or maybe I'm just used to their being copious amounts of trash-talking going on when I'm playing. I wouldn't hesitate to accuse one of my regular opponents of "sleazing" me by locking a guy up with VBM... and they wouldn't hesitate to accuse me of the same if the shoe were on the other foot.

To be honest--- this would be a relatively benign comment at the annual "To The Last Man" playing at ASLOk... where its more about who can deliver the best trash-talk rather than the results on the board.

"VBM Sleaze": Its just part of the game---- at least for now anyways--- and I for one would be suprised if it was removed. At some point you just get over the angst and play on.

I'm just sayin'

JT
Jim:

Please read what I wrote. I specifically referred to "non-game context" prefacing those comments.

Within games (and specifically ASL), I think people calling "sleaze" are either leaning on a crutch (bad) or just talking trash (not my style, but not a problem, either). That's to be laughed either at or with depending on their intent. I take no offense to it within ASL. The tactic itself bothers me not at all and I have no angst about it as I thought I had made clear.

I simply abhor unwritten rules. They are one of the most clear demonstrations of a flawed rules set. And I have little interest in playing anyone who seriously believes some legal tactics are "sleazy."

And you can call me Spencer... :)

S
 

James Taylor

I love women with brains
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
6,486
Reaction score
377
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
How long did you play before you knew about it?
Geez... I don't even know for sure... but it couldn't have been that long... because I can remember some pretty early games with it.

When I was finally able to start getting serious about playing ASL--- 1990 or 91, I had a regular FtF opponent named Don Corrigan who did not have the baggage of playing SL. Even though I had a lot of the mechanics down, Don was diligent about actually reading the rules in detail and pretty quickly was showing me things with the phrase, "No... you are doing it wrong."

I *think* he was probably the one who got me to read TPBF target limitations with focus, but those memory cells have long since been reused for other purposes.

JT
 

James Taylor

I love women with brains
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
6,486
Reaction score
377
Location
Michigan
Country
llUnited States
Jim:

Please read what I wrote. I specifically referred to "non-game context" prefacing those comments.

Within games (and specifically ASL), I think people calling "sleaze" are either leaning on a crutch (bad) or just talking trash (not my style, but not a problem, either). That's to be laughed either at or with depending on their intent. I take no offense to it within ASL. The tactic itself bothers me not at all and I have no angst about it as I thought I had made clear.

I simply abhor unwritten rules. They are one of the most clear demonstrations of a flawed rules set. And I have little interest in playing anyone who seriously believes some legal tactics are "sleazy."

And you can call me Spencer... :)

S
Point taken Spencer, re-read and properly understood.

My point is I don't have an issue with the "sleaze" label. Its a gamey mechanic--- along with many other gamey mechanics in the game. That we choose to show a little disdain for it by giving it the sleaze label is not a big deal IMHO.

JT
 
Top