Dennis boys trip to Manila #2 (Let's try SF CG3)

[Michael R]

He's asking if the infantry can immediately use a FULL TB made by the tank by passing through the mined hex.

At first blush, it seems okay to me.

 

[Den589]

I like your AARs because you include great pictures!

BTW are not all mines set up onboard?

Only the mines in open ground, shellhole or palm/coconut stumps have to be set up on board. Most of my mines have been in building locations, debris or woods.

 

[sdennis]

He's asking if the infantry can immediately use a FULL TB made by the tank by passing through the mined hex.

At first blush, it seems okay to me.

Not exacly Michael. The hex in question is a mined building hex. So the tank enters the building, the TB goes through the minefield to inside the building where the tank resides. This is not technically a full TB is it?

 

[von Marwitz]

Not exacly Michael. The hex in question is a mined building hex. So the tank enters the building, the TB goes through the minefield to inside the building where the tank resides. This is not technically a full TB is it?

If the tank enters the Minefield hex and then stays there without exiting that hex through a different hexside, then the tank only created a partial TB.

If the tank enters the Minefield hex and exits that hex through a different hexside, then the tank created a full TB.

If the tank enters the Minefield hex and leaves that hex through the same hexside through which it entered (regardless of whether reversing out or moving out after turning on the spot), the partial TB which it created upon entry will be eliminated upon exit.

von Marwitz

 

[sdennis]

So by this logic, if I drove the tank out of the mined building hex into another building hex that is CONNECTED to the original hex, is it a partial TB or full TB? The exit hexside is not mined by definition, so I have a TB "path" that is fully inside a building? doesn't make sense to me. For a single hex building I can agree with your comments above, but think large building in one of my pictures above. The infantry only needs a TB to enter the hex free of mine attack, it could go upstairs from there or deeper in the building with out attack by definition of building mine hex...

 

[von Marwitz]

So by this logic, if I drove the tank out of the mined building hex into another building hex that is CONNECTED to the original hex, is it a partial TB or full TB? The exit hexside is not mined by definition, so I have a TB "path" that is fully inside a building? doesn't make sense to me. For a single hex building I can agree with your comments above, but think large building in one of my pictures above. The infantry only needs a TB to enter the hex free of mine attack, it could go upstairs from there or deeper in the building with out attack by definition of building mine hex...

The answer depends on whether the tank started the game in the mined building hex or not (in your case it did not, but I am just pointing it out to illustrate).

If you set up your tank in a Minefield hex, you will not have a TB in it, neither full nor partial.
If you move your tank out of a Minefield hex successfully, not even a partial TB will remain because, there is no other partial TB by this same tank leading into the hex.

You might want to remember, that partial TB never survive, if the vehicle which has created them, leaves the Minefield/Woods. Only full TBs, i.e. created by a fully tracked AFV entering AND exiting the hex through different hexsides not using VBM, do "survive" for later use by other units.

In your case with a CONNECTED building, Infantry cannot use a partial TB to enter without Mine attack. The Infantry could, however, exit across the CONNECTED building hexside(s) without Mine attack as long as they do so within the building itself, where no Minefields exist.

Have to break off here because I got to leave. Might take this up later.

Cheers,
von Marwitz

 

[sdennis]

So you are saying that if my tank leaves through a NON mined hexside (into another building hex, directly connected) the TB (partial, whatever) is vaporized...
I can see how you got here but it basically means you have to create a FULL TB out of the building to use the TB at all to enter the building.
That seems hokey and gamey to me...

Seems like a logic hole that was missed in this big book of rules.

 

[Eagle4ty]

So you are saying that if my tank leaves through a NON mined hexside (into another building hex, directly connected) the TB (partial, whatever) is vaporized...
I can see how you got here but it basically means you have to create a FULL TB out of the building to use the TB at all to enter the building.
That seems hokey and gamey to me...

Seems like a logic hole that was missed in this big book of rules.

Yah think!

 

[von Marwitz]

So you are saying that if my tank leaves through a NON mined hexside (into another building hex, directly connected) the TB (partial, whatever) is vaporized...
I can see how you got here but it basically means you have to create a FULL TB out of the building to use the TB at all to enter the building.
That seems hokey and gamey to me...

Seems like a logic hole that was missed in this big book of rules.

No. If your tank leaves the hex through any hexside through which it did not enter (i.e. entry/exit hexside must not be identical), then - and only then - a full TB is placed.

Other units can only take advantage of a full TB but never of a partial TB.

While fully tracked AFV can take advantage of a full TB created by other fully tracked AFV in the same MPh, I am not sure if Infantry could also do this in the same MPh or if for Infantry, the full TB becomes only usable after the end of the CCPh in accord with the Clearance rules.

As Minefields only exist outside of building depictions, units could leave a building hex conntected to an ADJACENT building hex via the connecting hex-side(s) without Minefield attack.

If a tank entered a building hex with a Minefield via a non-building hexside, you would place a partial TB counter after entry (provided the tank is not destroyed or immob'ed).
For the sake of the argument, let us now assume, the said tank would leave the mined bulding hex across a building hexside into an ADJACENT building hex, which is also mined (surviving and still mobile), the first hex would now be marked with a full TB counter, the tank would not be attacked by the mines when leaving it, nor would it be attacked when entering the second hex, because the mines are only outside the building. In the second hex, you'd now place a partial TB. After that, the tank leaves the second mined building hex through a non-building hexside, is attacked by the Mines and would then (provided being still alive an mobile) create a full TB in the second mined building hex. Other tanks using the same route along the two full TBs could now pass through without Minefield attacks. Of course, in reality, the tank(s) would likely bog along the way or fall into the cellar(s).

von Marwitz

 

[Gordon]

Of course, in reality, the tank(s) would likely bog along the way or fall into the cellar(s).

von Marwitz

Certainly my tanks would, and probably catch fire and explode, to boot.

 

[sdennis]

We got in one more turn yesterday before I leave for Iceland. Neil is still struggling to pass the PMC for my better dice. territory wise I think he's fine, CVP wise I might be in the lead which is not desirable for him for sure.

The west is just me hiding, his newly unhip 10-1 has some interesting LOS over here and did a little damage. And the flames continue to propogate.


Moving one frame east we also see that I am staying away from the college and he is likely unable to come after me since I assume the entire front is mined.
The pharmacy was interesting, I did get a guy in and upstairs but he died in CC but the 447 that killed him died when everyone out in the street and across the street fired at him. So 447 died to kill my 347...
All my talk about crashing buildings and making TB won't be used here (not totally agreeing with Von Maritz just yet!) He also moved a reinforcing HW (guess here) into the pharmacy, that's the large stack in 3Q76), so he has two healthy stacks playing reverse slope here behind the mines.
You can see the 150 moved over to the rooftop mortars and only got a stripe or two for it.


Next Frame east shows the main attack really. In the science building we used the rubble hex to get in, my first guy was a 667/FT who survived the 2 shots and did some damage before routing away. We almost moved the 150 here but the danger to too many of my own guys dissuaded me. We have a HS stuck in the tree minefield and I was able to get guys into every front hex of this building. The CX guy is mine and will likely get pushed back I suppose. I lost one of the .50 in my rubble kill stack after he helped impact the backside of Ermita, where I also got in fairly well. We cleared 4F77 with a full stack with leader "all" move and I tried to remove the wire with the tank but not after 2 tries. The first 2 squads got hung up while the last guy got through with leader help, entered 4D76 and killed the last above ground japanese HS. I tried to just move into the other known mined hex and broke the leader and squad for my troubles, they were able to rout upstairs though where if they rally that still might be useful.
The 8-0/FT is sitting on top of a concealed 448/9-0. the Japanese strategy here is to just try to survive in the cellars. I see no rule to negate it so I suppose if I get in the other stairwell hex they will be encircled (no exit) but I assume they will survive until the end and become isolated.
The 100mm OBA is acting as a deterent right now only, I don't want to use it this late unless he gives me a REALLY juicy set of targets, I'd rather save it for tomorrow. My overwatch 50 cals moved up a block to try to stop any guys getting close enough for infiltration.

And in the east we have the chess match... which I hate. The american really needs to gather up the board edge and keep the Japanese from being able to setup over here and be a PITA later. Trying to figure out which hexes you MUST grab vs. ones you will get in refit is just too much thinking for me. I brought the M8s back over here even though the sniper is over here just to keep him from running free and than using infiltration to isolate me or anything like that. Neil is talking like using infiltration to move into the street to make his perimeter as close to me as possible to push me away because of the setup restrictions in the next scenario.

 

[Honza]

Excellent. So no rain then?

 

[sdennis]

no it started raining on Turn 2 I think and hasn't stopped. We've rolled like 5 or 6 consecutive 5s since to tease the rain stopping...
If I had smoke this would be a completely different attack and result. I think the smoke is VERY VERY decisive here to a careful attacker.
Both buildings I'm JUST getting into would have been shrouded in smoke for a LONG time without the rain, especially with the wind.

 

[Tuomo]

BTW the big circular part of The American School (4Q79) is modeled after my high school.

 

[Den589]

We got in one more turn yesterday before I leave for Iceland. Neil is still struggling to pass the PMC for my better dice. territory wise I think he's fine, CVP wise I might be in the lead which is not desirable for him for sure.

I'm trying very hard to calmly and maturely pass this PMC. During the last five play sessions dating through this entire CG and the CGII we abandoned, my dice are about the worst I have ever encountered, during the many years I've been playing this game. What makes this particularly bad is that this is simultaneously occurring while Steve's dice are the best I have probably ever seen his. I'm keeping track of just 2's and 12's since this CG began and I'm rolling nearly 3 times as many 12's and he IS rolling 3 times as many 2's as I am (not to mention the unending 3's, he better not lower my SAN!!!!!). And we are using the same precision dice. A new set is in route to my address as I type this. The current set will disappear so Steve can never find them again.

Enough of the whining though, I don't think I'm in a super bad position. I've essentially been using a reverse slope defense, of the building variety. Staying one hex in and waiting for him to move up usually in a mine hex. The 3W76 hex was my best position in the Science building because of the un-mineable rubble hex. He moved in a concealed FT adjacent into the 3W77 rubble and i actually got a 2MC on him, but he passed and proceeded to smoke the whole stack, killing a 9-1, striping two squads and ELR'ing 1. That single event opened up the whole Science Building and he may be able to take that whole thing now. Although he only has one guaranteed movement phase so i may just play hide and seek here. The big level 2 apartment building is in danger as well, but I'm currently playing games in the cellars with three counters (he knows ones a 9-0 leader.) All of the other big named buildings are fine with no threats to them and I'm probably going to be able to recapture some territory near Manila Bay since he has almost no troops over there.

I did overlook one rule that other Japanese players need to pay attention to in my opinion in all of the Manila CG's. Steve pointed out that not only can guns only move 3 hexes between CG dates (which I knew), they also can never regain HIP (which I did not know). That is killer to the Japanese, since anything that is set up in view is sure to meet a .50caliber stack in turn 1 of the next day. This CG does seem to flow better to us than CGII and the enjoyment factor is up despite the soon to be melted down dice.

 

[Gordon]

This CG does seem to flow better to us than CGII and the enjoyment factor is up despite the soon to be melted down dice.

Just tell Steve that the dice "went to the farm" to be with all the other dice.

 

[Honza]

There is nothing like bad luck to sap the fun out of the game.

 

[sdennis]

So Neil and I did play another turn yesterday, lots of travel on my part and a bad day drinking BEFORE a scheduled play day have slowed us down.
Didn't take pictures since we are getting close the the end.
Highlights:

• Neil is tracking 2s and 12s and we are pretty much even on 12s but I still produce more 2s even with 2 new set of precision dice!!
• My FTs are my main weapon.
• Game did not end on Turn 5, we are sitting at American T6 when we reconvene.
• Wind shifted again and the rain stopped (1,1) happens to do that eh? So T6 will be interesting with perhaps Smoke now but his MOrtars also aren't shooting through +3 rain anymore.
• The Americans are trying to kill the last 1.5 squads in the Ermita Apts. They came out of the cellar and I have about 7 or 8 squads in the building. Still have a few hexes to search to make sure no HIP is left, this might fall but might not.
• The science building has been FT hell for him. I have 4 or 5 FTs in the building or near it. and they roll well. He is down to 1 stripe squad in 3W75 that got pinned and could not escape. Everyone else is dead or left the building. Could be HIP guys in the back row cellar/L1. A few searches here is all I need too, if he has no more HIP here this should fall, I have 2 FTs that can hit this last guy.
• He has counterattacked near the bay where he basically outnumbers me now, especially with the 3 MTR overwatch. He has crossed Herran Street and I need to hide again.
• My 150mm OBA drew a 2nd red and I decided to use my 100mm on T4 so I won't have it for tomorrow but with it going another turn might be an OK decision. It's banging away in the 4C72 area.

 

[sdennis]

He also tried about 6 or 7 THH rolls, failed half of them and the other half all ended up getting wounded with not enough MF to make their targets!
They did suck up a lot of fire though.

 

[Den589]

Casualties as we enter turn 6 are 12.5 squad/equiv. Japanese to go with 3 leaders (only a single-1 leader among them though.) The Americans have lost 8 squad/equiv. Mostly elite Americans (including a full engineer squad) and mostly 2nd line Japanese count among the dead.

Biggest amount of casualties to the Japanese have come from the aforementioned FT and to be honest I have no idea how Steve's casualties have gotten to 8. He's only really lost one squad from running into a bad spot and getting KIA'd and he did lose a squad and a half at the end of turn 5 via failure to rout and from him firing into a melee and killing the whole hex. So I guess no real dominant Japanese success, just nickel and dimeing his guys away.

Steve's SAN has also been reduced to 2, which is an awesome development since it is apparently impossible for me to roll snake-eyes even with new precision dice. That being said my dice have been better than the soon to be melted down old dice.