Democrats chicken out from climate change in the debates

Sand Bar Bill

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I didn't watch the debates, just some recaps... but I understand that all Democrats all shied away from climate change.

Too much heavy political lifting, sort of like stating what you would do to actually reduce the deficit.

There is nobody making sacrifices or contributions solely because of climate change. If you install solar panels, you are doing it for the financial gain. If you go vegan, you are doing it for animal welfare/ less taxing of the earth's resources.

I think climate change is still going on, but the threat is too abstract and the required individual change to infinitesimally minuscule to leverage about it for it to be anything more than a political liability to address.

I suppose we can all just move to Saskatchewan, when it becomes a paradise in 100 years.
 
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Sparafucil3

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There is nobody making sacrifices or contributions solely because of climate change. If you install solar panels, you are doing it for the financial gain. If you go vegan, you are doing it for animal welfare/ less taxing of the earth's resources.

I think climate change is still going on, but the threat is too abstract and the required individual change to infinitesimally minuscule to leverage about it for it to be anything more than a political liability to address.
Some taxation--usually in the form of tax-credits--is done to get people to spend money in a certain way. No one wants to by rail-road rolling stock. Not enough return. So if the government wants to encourage investment there, it offers tax credits for buying rolling stock. The same could happen here. You just need use their motivations to your advantage. Far easier than trying to change the way they think out of the gate. The change of thinking comes later. -- jim
 

DWPetros

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The Dems should take on Climate Change as their main topic. They didn't emphasize the subject in the debates this week, though they paid some lip service to it.
It's the largest issue we face - but also the most difficult one to discuss solutions to. The problem is a deep one, not easily approached with DC policy - especially when half of DC is as mad as hatters and cannot be counted on to think or act like serious adult-types.
 

Sand Bar Bill

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Some taxation--usually in the form of tax-credits--is done to get people to spend money in a certain way. No one wants to by rail-road rolling stock. Not enough return. So if the government wants to encourage investment there, it offers tax credits for buying rolling stock. The same could happen here. You just need use their motivations to your advantage. Far easier than trying to change the way they think out of the gate. The change of thinking comes later. -- jim
I agree tax credits for individual and business behavior. But we also need some leadership on the issue and no one wants to pick up the mantle. The public is both concerned (at least a significant segment) but most don't want to be bothered.

The human race will just have to ride it out at this point. And at some point, we will need solar or nuclear or whatever.

Like a smoke dispenser on an ASL tank (ironic example), fossil fuels, once depleted it cannot be re-filled.
 

Sparafucil3

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But we also need some leadership on the issue and no one wants to pick up the mantle.
There are lots of leaders, you just seem to be focused on their motivations rather than the fact they are actually acting in the way you want. ;) -- jim
 

TopT

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The Dems should take on Climate Change as their main topic. They didn't emphasize the subject in the debates this week, though they paid some lip service to it.
It's the largest issue we face - but also the most difficult one to discuss solutions to. The problem is a deep one, not easily approached with DC policy - especially when half of DC is as mad as hatters and cannot be counted on to think or act like serious adult-types.
Because it doesn't push the electorate as much as you think it should.

You think it should be priority #1. Most think income inequality, or a decent paying wage, should be priority #1. Then there are women who think reproductive rights should be priority #1. And still others think that healthcare should be high on the list.

We (USA) can do whatever you think is the right push to help the planet but as long as other countries, notably China & India do little to nothing, it will make no difference.
 

DWPetros

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The US should take the lead on this issue for a number of reasons. Waiting for China or India to make a move seems way too defeatist on an issue that if left alone will defeat us. All the other issues, (well, maybe not nuclear war) while important, pale in comparison to the challenge of climate change. I think because its such an overwhelming issue, people understandably stand down.
A saying I like - (different subject but same idea) - 'we don't fight fascists to win, we fight fascists because they're fascists'.
 

Sparky

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The US should take the lead on this issue for a number of reasons.
of course we should.. and for reasons that work.

of course she has a plan for that...

"Here's what I propose, start with a place where there is a real need. There is going to be a worldwide need for green technology, ways to clean up the air and the water. And we can be the ones to provide that. We need to go tenfold in our research and development on green energy going forward, and we need to say any corporation can come and use that research. They can make all kinds of products from it, but they have to be manufactured right here in the United States of America. There is a $23 trillion market coming for green products. We should be the leaders and the owners and we should have that 1.2 million manufacturing jobs here in America. We can do this."
 

DWPetros

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I suspect the petroleum industry and their Congressional bootlickers will have much to say about whether Warren's policies get enacted. Their objections need to be overcome by those who actually care about the continuation of life on planet Earth.
 

Sparky

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I suspect the petroleum industry and their Congressional bootlickers will have much to say about whether Warren's policies get enacted. Their objections need to be overcome by those who actually care about the continuation of life on planet Earth.
and umm.. was a debate topic... and not surprisingly 'she has a plan' for that as well 🤣

and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know what that plan is in dealing with obstructionist McConnell... one of the few times she didn't come out and say what it is.. but she didn't have to. Those paying attention to what is going on know what it is.

and who do you think these corporations will be Don.. she is right there are trillions to be made... and I would not expect you and I are any smarter than those whose job and livelihood depends on knowing which way the wind blows. The days of coal, and fossil fuels are numbered. They will be first in line to deal with a changed world and economy once push comes to shove. Look at AT&T did they stop technology from advancing and times from changing? Nope, they adjusted. Same I suspect will happen with the Petro industry. However the rules will be different and those jobs stay in this country.. and instead of racking up trillions in profit .. that wealth will be spread. To the workers and yep.. right back at the Government in taxes more than recouping what they spend in R@D

appealing to peace love, good dope and natural chicks who don't believe in razors isn't going stimulate action on global warming.. Warren being the capitalist she is.. understands fully what will. Pure economics will...
 

DWPetros

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One can only wonder how they sleep knowing how little they've sold their souls for to the devil. The mind boggles.
 

Brian W

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That can't be! There are people freezing to death on Mt Everest, so how can India be that hot?

<how many republicans would agree with that if you said it in front of them? I bet it's about 80% of those over 65 years old. And 60% for those under 66 years old.>
 

Sparky

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One can only wonder how they sleep knowing how little they've sold their souls for to the devil. The mind boggles.
oh man... do we want to turn this into a philosophical sociological psychiatric thread... politics is so much more fun.. and so much more simpler than parsing the human condition haha

it's called being a human Don. Compounded by the fucking chromosomes that curse us as men. That is what we do.. we are born, we create and destroy with the same relish and gusto, and before we die.. we look back not at the world around us and what we are leaving...

but at our own little lives and how much did we got for ourselves.
 

DWPetros

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oh man... do we want to turn this into a philosophical sociological psychiatric thread... politics is so much more fun.. and so much more simpler than parsing the human condition haha

it's called being a human Don. Compounded by the fucking chromosomes that curse us as men. That is what we do.. we are born, we create and destroy with the same relish and gusto, and before we die.. we look back not at the world around us and what we are leaving...

but at our own little lives and how much did we got for ourselves.
I really don't know where the line between philosophy, sociology, psychology, and politics ends or begins, Sparky. My own mind moves towards the psychological / religio-philosophical. I actually do think a person has a 'soul' (not in a conventional sense) which they can either willfully deteriorate ('sell to the devil') or elevate.

I think whether we lived for 'good' (others/all) or for 'bad' (selfishly) eventually comes back to us sooner or later. Life eventually teaches through the success or failure of evolution. That our actions come back to us in some way is called karma (east), or retribution (west), which apparently work towards a 'balancing' (order). The concept of karma does a much better job of describing this I think.

So, I reject the notion that the universe is not ordered; something for another forum :) And I think those who willfully work for their immediate and personal gain as opposed to the greater good of others will someday pay the price to the last penny.
 

Sparafucil3

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And I think those who willfully work for their immediate and personal gain as opposed to the greater good of others will someday pay the price to the last penny.
And I think those that don't take of themselves are too busy worried about how they are going to make it to be able to think beyond their own immediate need and I know they pay the price every second of every day. Bad decisions only may the price higher. -- jim
 

Sand Bar Bill

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Political suicide to address climate change. A great little blog entry about how foolish it is for Democrats to hold a climate change debate (about what to do about it), and what a godsend for the Republicans. Among tough questions that could be asked of Democrats?

Which candidates support a carbon tax? How big?
Who thinks we need to end coal mining?
Who’s in favor of restrictions on meat production? (I highlighted that one, that would be merciful. LOL)
Does anyone like the idea of a $10 gasoline tax?
Should we ease environmental review rules for utility-grade solar and wind plants?
What should we do about air travel?
And cement production?
And chemical manufacturing?
Should we scrap the WTO and put in place whopping tariffs on carbon-intensive imports?

The whole thing is a good little read.
 

DWPetros

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No one can know what those costs would be - but they wouldn't kill people. On the other hand, if the climate isn't checked, not only is it explained that people will die, but possibly that all life on the planet will die.

I'm pretty sure that reasonable people generally agree with this and that unreasonable people think about it only in terms of money. We've never had an earth-ending event to deal with, but have dealt with lack of money - hence the argument seems to be stuck within the known parameters. Selfish people see it only in terms of 'me' and 'my money now'; the standard conservative view.

As long as the conservative mindset is driving this issue - we're likely doomed to experience their short-term strategy that has failed always and everywhere throughout history.
 

Brian W

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No one can know what those costs would be - but they wouldn't kill people.
Certainly they will kill some people. They should, however, save more.

There are a lot of things the president can do to slow our rate of carbon release, and to prepare for extreme change should/when the American people decide its needed. As a platform, it is far far removed from what most people care about. Unfortunately, republicans are using the problem as a political tool against their opponents, instead of doing some common sense things to prepare for possible extremism, things that don't involve $10/gallon gas tax.

In other words, it's only an important political issue because one party will do nothing to prepare. Even when doing so is economically and medically beneficial. Because winning politically is more important than the country to them.
 

TopT

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Certainly they will kill some people. They should, however, save more.

There are a lot of things the president can do to slow our rate of carbon release, and to prepare for extreme change should/when the American people decide its needed. As a platform, it is far far removed from what most people care about. Unfortunately, republicans are using the problem as a political tool against their opponents, instead of doing some common sense things to prepare for possible extremism, things that don't involve $10/gallon gas tax.

In other words, it's only an important political issue because one party will do nothing to prepare. Even when doing so is economically and medically beneficial. Because winning politically is more important than the country to them.

Trump ran on exiting the Paris climate agreement. People voted for him because of this position.

It is death to a democrat to run that as his campaign's # 1 priority. Until democrat's take the WH, House, & Senate it is dubious to think you will get anything big passed on climate change.

Warren can have all the plans for McConnell but if the D's do NOT take the Senate, he will have even better plans for her. He tied Obama's hands for 8 years. The last six he was also able to grab a leg.
 
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