Delay fire onto same hex former Melee

[MajorDomo]

My opponent's AFV holds my squad in Melee.

In his MPh, he announces a one delay MP and Bounding Fire.

He claimed that my squad was NOT free from Melee because a delay is not a Start MP, thus my squad could not Gun Duel him because was still held in Melee.

It did not seem correct to me, but I could not find a rule to counter his position.



Thanks,

Rich

 

[Binchois]

Sounds correct to me since the vehicle isn't Moving or in Motion until it spends a Start MP:

A11.7 ....Even though a vehicle cannot be held in Melee, a non-Abandoned, "unbroken" (12.1) vehicle holds all Known enemy Infantry occupying the same Location after a CCPh in Melee as long as it remains in the Location (unless in-Motion/Non-Stopped).​

 

[Hemaelstrom]

I'm inclined to think that although the AFV cannot be held in Melee, it is nevertheless subject to the restrictions of Melee until it leaves the hex or the Melee no longer exists. This would invalidate the use of Bounding Fire until a Start MP is spent. I can't find such a rule though, sorry.

 

[Hemaelstrom]

And i may therefore be wildly wrong in my interpretation...

 

[jrv]

I'm inclined to think that although the AFV cannot be held in Melee, it is nevertheless subject to the restrictions of Melee until it leaves the hex or the Melee no longer exists. This would invalidate the use of Bounding Fire until a Start MP is spent.

There is no such rule. The vehicle may fire in the PFPh, in the MPh or in the AFPh against enemy targets in its Location during its turn at its option even when there are enemy Melee infantry. In the enemy player turn it could fire in the DFPh (or in the enemy MPh if another enemy unit entered the Location). Vehicles are never held in Melee and may perform allowed actions normally. The *are* restricted by A7.212, which prevents them from firing out of a Location where they hold an enemy unit in Melee. I would expect that if the vehicle just wants to eliminate the Melee infantry it would fire in its PFPh. If it wants to go do other things, it might wait until the MPh, trading bounding fire penalties for the flexibility of being able to move on and/or because it hoped to be "rescued" by an outside attack before it moved (and so released its hold on the Melee unit). In an unusual situation the vehicle might wait until the AFPh if it was waiting for outside rescue that failed, then it hoped to eliminate the Melee infantry and then fire on an outside target that it wanted to gain acquistion on. I can't come up with a better story where a vehicle would prefer to fire in the AFPh over the MPh.

JR

 

[Ed Caswell]

Rule D3.3 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE (4th sentence) specifically states a vehicle may expend Delay MPs at the start of its MPh.

Ed

 

[jrv]

Rule D3.3 BOUNDING FIRST FIRE (4th sentence) specifically states a vehicle may expend Delay MPs at the start of its MPh.

The fact that it may delay does not necessarily mean that it can shoot. It can shoot, as I said above, but the reason it can shoot is not because it can delay. Note also that vehicle can also shoot *before* it expends any MPs, including for delay. The bit about delay is a red herring; I can't think of a reason to spend any MP in delay.

JR

 

[MajorDomo]

The reason he expended "one delay MPh" is to allow his AFV to fire at my Melee squad without suffering a "bounding fire" gun duel (my squad was German in 1945 and would have won the gun duel and looked for a panzerfaust).

The AFV then planned to start, drive off and do other things upon hopefully neutralizing my squad.

The "red herring" delay was intended to hold the squad in Melee because the Melee is only terminated upon a Start Movement, which a Delay is not.

I could not find where the delay freed my squad from Melee to declare a gun duel.

Rich

 

[Ed Caswell]

The fact that it may delay does not necessarily mean that it can shoot. It can shoot, as I said above, but the reason it can shoot is not because it can delay. Note also that vehicle can also shoot *before* it expends any MPs, including for delay. The bit about delay is a red herring; I can't think of a reason to spend any MP in delay.

JR

See Post 1 and/or Post 8 as basis for Delay MPs.

Ed

 

[Hemaelstrom]

That seems an outrageous way to circumvent the gun duel rule in order to get free shots off at a unit restricted to action in only the CCPh, or until Melee is ended, at the AFV's pleasure. I hadn't seen this before jrv opened my eyes to the freedom of the AFV in not being "held in Melee". It seems wrong and Majordomo has my sympathy, for what little it might worth on an internet forum, coming from just some random guy.

 

[jrv]

See Post 1 and/or Post 8 as basis for Delay MPs.

There is no purpose that I can see. The vehicle can shoot without spending any delay points. If the defender were not held in Melee it could use a defender gun duel, but it is held in Melee and so can't fire for any reason. If it were able to fire, it could fire DFF on the delay MP just as easily as it could use defender gun duel. Spending MP for delay serves no purpose and only allows outside units to fire DFF. If the vehicle does not delay, only its BFF target can potentially attempt a gun duel, and that BFF target can't because it's tied up in Melee. Delay is legal if that's what you want to do, but here it looks like a needless action.

JR

 

[MajorDomo]

JR,

Where does it say that the same hex Melee defender can fire at the AFV Delay MP?

The only thing I can find that frees the Melee defender to shoot specifically requires s a Start MP, which Delay is not.

Rich

 

[jrv]

Where does it say that the same hex Melee defender can fire at the AFV Delay MP?

The only thing I can find that frees the Melee defender to shoot specifically requires s a Start MP, which Delay is not.

A Melee defender may never fire. The vehicle has to release it from Melee before it can shoot. Thus the vehicle can fire *before* it expends any MP better than it can after a delay MP expenditure. If it fires before, the only unit that might potentially be able to DFF, the target of its BFF, the Melee infantry, can't declare a defender gun duel nor DFF because that defender is tied up in Melee. I cannot see any reason to spend a delay MP. That only allows outside units to DFF.

JR

 

[MajorDomo]

Ok, so you are saying the AFV can shoot at the same hex Melee squad at the start of its MPh, then expend a start MP point and drive off. The melee squad has no Gun Duel option.

I always thought that the AFV must expend a start MPh (or recently a Delay MPh) In order to shoot at the Melee squad as Bounding Fire and that allows the now freed squad to Gun Duel the now Bounding Fire AFV.

Does that summarize it?

Rich

 

[jrv]

Ok, so you are saying the AFV can shoot at the same hex Melee squad at the start of its MPh, then expend a start MP point and drive off. The melee squad has no Gun Duel option.

I always thought that the AFV must expend a start MPh (or recently a Delay MPh) In order to shoot at the Melee squad as Bounding Fire and that allows the now freed squad to Gun Duel the now Bounding Fire AFV.

Does that summarize it?

I can't rightly say for sure what you always thought, but the first part is correct.

If the vehicle doesn't like the result of the BFF attack it need not start up. It might just delay the rest of its MPh and never release the Melee unit. The vehicle might do this, for example, if the Infantry had PFs and/or a PSK that would blow it to pieces.

JR

 

[MajorDomo]

Ok, got it.

One of those things I have always played incorrectly.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[von Marwitz]

Interesting thread.

I believe I was not aware of this tactic but it is surely worth being hastily scribbled into 'Ye Olde Blacke Booke of von Marwitz's Quillets'...

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

There is at least one good reason that one might delay. If the vehicle is in bypass of the hex it holds the enemy Melee infantry and its TCA does not include that hex, it might have to delay so it can change TCA before it shoots. I don't have the impression that the situation here included such a case, but that would be a reason to spend a delay MP.

JR