Defensive fire question..

[john pump ward]

Hello
Allied stack..
6-6-7 + 7-4-7 MMG and 8-1 leader
Defensive First Fire at enemy 6 hexes apart during movement
firepower 12 vs -1ffnam -1leader
rolls "1" and "6" (1 one on colored die)
ROF for the GI mmg

If I want to keep ROF, no hindrances in between firing hex and target

is the resid at the target hex the total of the 2 squads (6 + 3.5) = 6 resid?
keeping the MMG out of the resid AND the leader also.... free to continue to fire during Allied movement phase?

Thanks

 

[clubby]

Unless sk is different, residual would be 4. 9.5 goes down to 8 on the IFT (highest column used for that shot) and then half of that.

 

[jrv]

6-6-7 + 7-4-7 MMG and 8-1 leader
Defensive First Fire at enemy 6 hexes apart during movement
firepower 12 vs -1ffnam -1leader
rolls "1" and "6" (1 one on colored die)
ROF for the GI mmg

If I want to keep ROF, no hindrances in between firing hex and target

is the resid at the target hex the total of the 2 squads (6 + 3.5) = 6 resid?
keeping the MMG out of the resid AND the leader also.... free to continue to fire during Allied movement phase?

Per 3.3.5 "When a unit is attacked by Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire or FPF, the location in which the attack is resolved is marked with a Residual FP counter equal to a half (up to a maximum of 12; round fractions down) of the IFT FP column used for that attack (including an ordnance hit), although a Weapon that malfunctions or retains ROF leaves no Residual FP."

This is unfortunately not as clear as it might be as to what happens when a weapon malfunctions or retains ROF as part of a larger fire group. In ASL, and likely in ASLSK, the FP for weapons that retain ROF or malfunction is removed from the halving calculation. In your case the FP used to calculate the strength of the residual is six plus three-and-a-half--nine-and-a-half--which attacks (excluding the MMG) on the eight FP column and leaves four FP residual.

In ASL you would have the option to decline to retain ROF in order to put down a larger residual FP marker (or to put one down at all if firing ordnance), but I don't see that the option is given in ASLSK. (In general retaining ROF is better than adding to the residual FP counter, but there are some good reasons one might voluntarily decline ROF in ASL).

JR

 

[john pump ward]

HI
You fellows are the best! Thanks for your help

 

[djohannsen]

In ASL you would have the option to decline to retain ROF in order to put down a larger residual FP marker (or to put one down at all if firing ordnance)...

Wow, I didn't know this. So much to learn...

(In general retaining ROF is better than adding to the residual FP counter, but there are some good reasons one might voluntarily decline ROF in ASL).

JR, may I pester for a situation other than leaving more residual where one might want to decline the RoF? I am a novice trying to learn to think better about the game, so would very much like to hear a hastily sketched situation where you might consider not retaining rate.


Dave

 

[von Marwitz]

JR, may I pester for a situation other than leaving more residual where one might want to decline the RoF? I am a novice trying to learn to think better about the game, so would very much like to hear a hastily sketched situation where you might consider not retaining rate.

Dave

I don't know if there are Fire Lanes in SK. If so, this would be the prime example.

Forfeit ROF to lay a FL instead. FL Residual FP will affect more hexes. And if you fire, say a 467+LMG (laying a FL) at a Location, you would get the following:

7FP/2=3.5 rounded down to 2RFP

vs.

4FP by squad/2 rounded to 2RFP AND
3FP by LMG as FL/2 rouned to 1 FL RFP

In the latter case, you have two types of RFP that attack individually in the targetted hex plus FL RFP in more hexes.

von Marwitz

 

[clubby]

Wow, I didn't know this. So much to learn...



JR, may I pester for a situation other than leaving more residual where one might want to decline the RoF? I am a novice trying to learn to think better about the game, so would very much like to hear a hastily sketched situation where you might consider not retaining rate.


Dave

I'm not jrv but I can help with one situation. Let's change the example above to 2 6-5-8s and a MMG. The attack is originally on the 16 FP IFT line and will leave 8 resid if the MMG is included. Your opponent has just one stack left to move and you think they're going into that hex or maybe you don't want them in that hex. Even using AM, leaving 8 resid in that hex is going to likely yield a better result than a pair of 4FP attacks. DR of 7 on the 4 is a PTC, on the 8 it's a 1MC. If they survive the resid, you can likely hit them with SFF as well. The deterrent effect of 6-8FP resid alone is sometimes worth it.

 

[djohannsen]

Forfeit ROF to lay a FL instead.
von Marwitz

I'm not jrv but I can help with one situation.

Thank you both. I want to become a better player, so helping me to look past the (very limited) ways that I currently think about the rules is very helpful. (By the way, as I was a machine gunner as a young man, I LOVE fire lanes with MG!)

Dave

 

[jrv]

There are no firelanes in ASLSK.

One example in ASL of when you might consider declining ROF is when you think you've gotten lucky, e.g. your conscript fired a captured MG and did not malfunction it. You might also leave the extra residual if the defending unit is about to be VBM-sleazed, OVR or BFF'd or SMOKED (sD or smoke grenades).

In general because of the way the IIFT works, when you have the option to combine or separate FP (e.g. deciding whether to firegroup two adjacent squads) you should prefer separate attacks if you have a net negative DRM, a single attack if you have a net positive DRM, and be indifferent between separate and single attacks if you have a zero DRM. This rule-of-thumb works well for lower FP; I have not computed it for higher FP.

In the original example if the unit (in ASL) declined ROF, it would put down six FP residual. If it retained ROF the residual FP would be at four FP and the MMG ROF attack would also be at four FP. The odds of getting a PTC+ with -2 DRM with six FP residual is less than two separate four FP (one residual, one the ROF MG) attacks. The considerations are more complicated that that, however, if the defenders can SFF or if the attacker can avoid the first residual, so don't take this as an absolute rule. You have to consider a lot of factors.

JR

 

[djohannsen]

One example in ASL of when you might consider declining ROF is when you think you've gotten lucky, e.g. your conscript fired a captured MG and did not malfunction it. You might also leave the extra residual if the defending unit is about to be VBM-sleazed, OVR or BFF'd or SMOKED (sD or smoke grenades).

Another good example. Thank you. (The potential for VBM-freeze is an especially compelling example).

In general because of the way the IIFT works, when you have the option to combine or separate FP (e.g. deciding whether to firegroup two adjacent squads) you should prefer separate attacks if you have a net negative DRM, a single attack if you have a net positive DRM, and be indifferent between separate and single attacks if you have a zero DRM. This rule-of-thumb works well for lower FP; I have not computed it for higher FP.

This is interesting, though I've never played the incremental IFT. I should quickly jot down some of the probabilities for separate vs. combined attacks on the IFT - this is something that I've wondered about and have been meaning to take a second and work through.

Again, thank you for taking the time to help me become a better player and have a GREAT weekend!


Dave

 

[jrv]

This is interesting, though I've never played the incremental IFT. I should quickly jot down some of the probabilities for separate vs. combined attacks on the IFT - this is something that I've wondered about and have been meaning to take a second and work through.

The same applies to the IFT. Negative DRM make separate attacks preferable.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

There are no firelanes in ASLSK.

Ach... It is hard to 'un-think' ASL when you are used to it and look at SK instead...
My bad.

von Marwitz

 

[von Marwitz]

The same applies to the IFT. Negative DRM make separate attacks preferable.

JR

This is good advice by JR.

As a rule of thumb (and duly note that these are always to be taken with a grain of salt), if you have negative DRMs, separate attacks are preferable. If you have positive DRMs then a combined attack may be better.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

Ach... It is hard to 'un-think' ASL when you are used to it and look at SK instead.

If only there were a resource--an ASLSK Index for ASL Players perhaps--that would let ASL players find rules in ASLSK and make it clear when rule are not present in ASLSK. We can only hope that some day that dream will come true.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

If only there were a resource--an ASLSK Index for ASL Players perhaps--that would let ASL players find rules in ASLSK and make it clear when rule are not present in ASLSK. We can only hope that some day that dream will come true.

JR

Well, it would take a genius to create such a thing. We could do with some stuff about Caves and attacking Concealed defensive positions, too.

von Marwitz

 

[xenovin]

I'm still trying to figure out JR's discussion of the LOS of a pillbox in a gully.....but SK doesn't need to worry about that.....yet.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I'm still trying to figure out JR's discussion of the LOS of a pillbox in a gully.....but SK doesn't need to worry about that.....yet.

Don't let it concern you too much as per Q&A PBs cannot be placed in a gully.