Defensive fire Baz.

BHBillett

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Since some Baz.'s have WP as an option, can a Baz. fire WP in defensive fire?
I get for the most part it would be pointless, an NMC and added MP might make it worth a shot as it were?
 

Maurizizio

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This, and it must be the first shot (or after any other SMOKE shot) taken in the Phase. -- jim
That is strange. The Defensive First Fire should be done on the movement of an enemy unit. So limiting the fire to "be the first shot of the phase" seems awkward. Could you point me to the ASLRB? I want do check and stamp it in my head. Or I will forget ... as much as another number of ASL rules :LOL:
 

Sparafucil3

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That is strange. The Defensive First Fire should be done on the movement of an enemy unit. So limiting the fire to "be the first shot of the phase" seems awkward. Could you point me to the ASLRB? I want do check and stamp it in my head. Or I will forget ... as much as another number of ASL rules :LOL:
C8.5 SMOKE (s): Smoke23 may be placed by ordnance/OBA only at the start of the owner’s PFPh/DFPh. Once any unit fires anything other than SMOKE during that PFPh/DFPh, no SMOKE may be fired during that PFPh/DFPh. ...

-- jim
 

Maurizizio

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C8.5 SMOKE (s): Smoke23 may be placed by ordnance/OBA only at the start of the owner’s PFPh/DFPh. Once any unit fires anything other than SMOKE during that PFPh/DFPh, no SMOKE may be fired during that PFPh/DFPh. ...
Thanks Jim. For sure it is weird to me. The C8.5 says PFPh/DFPh, it doesn't say anything about Mph (opponent Mph obviously). I wonder if there is a Q&A that clarify.
 

Maurizizio

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There are numbers of Q&A on this topic and Jim is totally right:
C8.6
Within the restrictions of C8.6, can WP be fired at a moving enemy unit during the enemy MPh?
If yes, would only the moving unit(s) in the target Location be to the NMC?
Yes to both. However, the WP would still have to be fired before any non-SMOKE ammo in that phase. [An92; An95w; An96; Mw]
 

BHBillett

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if C8.5 SMOKE (s): Smoke23 may be placed by ordnance/OBA only at the start
Is as stated, it says noting about Inf. nor support weapons. As Inf. and Baz. are NOT Ordnance nor OBA For that matter would say 60mm mortar be so restricted? I would assume anything using a to hit chart would be? That being said, a Baz. uses A to hit chart but not THE to hit chart would THAT disqualify it from smoke?
The other big issue as I see it, Smoke must be placed BEFORE any other fire. As opponent movement phase does is NOT my fire phase, but I CAN fire during his movement, he moves something on the other side of the board and I fire at it, would that preclude my ability to fire a smoke round from a Baz. 20 hexes away? Seems odd? But then as I recall this was written BEFORE the existence of Baz's with smoke.
I feel this all hinges on the definition of C8.5?
Yep, just found it in the Index. If you use a to hit table it is considered ordnance.
Still leaves a few dangling participles!
 
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Maurizizio

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if C8.5 SMOKE (s): Smoke23 may be placed by ordnance/OBA only at the start
..... he moves something on the other side of the board and I fire at it, would that preclude my ability to fire a smoke round from a Baz. 20 hexes away? Seems odd? ....
This is where my doubt came from, but in a tournament I would have to accept an opponent request to respect C8.5 and allow the shot only if no other no-smoke-WP shots have already happen. Until there would be a different and final Q&A. 🤓
 

semenza

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DFPh and MPh are not the same thing. If you fire at something in the movement phase it has nothing to do with the requirement of smoke needing to be the first thing that must fire in the DFPh.

IMO, based on the rule .................... smoke should not even be allowed to be fired in the MPh. Since it specifies DFPh.

Seth
 

chris_olden

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if C8.5 SMOKE (s): Smoke23 may be placed by ordnance/OBA only at the start
Is as stated, it says noting about Inf. nor support weapons. As Inf. and Baz. are NOT Ordnance nor OBA For that matter would say 60mm mortar be so restricted? I would assume anything using a to hit chart would be? That being said, a Baz. uses A to hit chart but not THE to hit chart would THAT disqualify it from smoke?
The other big issue as I see it, Smoke must be placed BEFORE any other fire. As opponent movement phase does is NOT my fire phase, but I CAN fire during his movement, he moves something on the other side of the board and I fire at it, would that preclude my ability to fire a smoke round from a Baz. 20 hexes away? Seems odd? But then as I recall this was written BEFORE the existence of Baz's with smoke.
I feel this all hinges on the definition of C8.5?
Yep, just found it in the Index. If you use a to hit table it is considered ordnance.
Still leaves a few dangling participles!
A BAZ doesn’t use a To Hit Table. It has its own TH#s printed on the counter.
 

Maurizizio

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DFPh and MPh are not the same thing. If you fire at something in the movement phase it has nothing to do with the requirement of smoke needing to be the first thing that must fire in the DFPh.
IMO, based on the rule .................... smoke should not even be allowed to be fired in the MPh. Since it specifies DFPh.
Seth
Q&A states something different. It is possible in the MPh and has to be fired before any no-Smoke fire.
 

semenza

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Q&A states something different. It is possible in the MPh and has to be fired before any no-Smoke fire.

Yes, I saw that. I just happen to disagree with it. I have always thought the rule was clear. I will play it however it needs to be played though.

It's also pretty rare when Defensive firing smoke is possible (the shoot it first thing) and also useful. As opposed to smoke dischargers to save a tank. Or OBA smoke.

I won Hill 621 once by dropping a smoke fire mission on and in front of Russian troops that were going for the top. Thus ruining all my shots at them and also not blasting them with artillery. Opponent was very puzzled. Didn't realize that I had guaranteed my win until he started the MPh. It was the last Russian move and I had made it impossible due to the extra MF needed to go through the smoke.

Seth
 

Philippe D.

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The quoted Q&A is also pretty old, the current interpretation might be different. (It would make sense, IMO)
 

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I'm thinking the rationale for the DFF smoke 1st Q&A is the same as for smoke in the other phases - to prevent a somewhat gamey "take my non-smoke shots at the target 1st and use smoke for the final shot". I get why some think 1st-shot-only-smoke doesn't make sense, but this is an abuse that still needs to be addressed.
If you don't mind a bit of added complexity, perhaps it could be amended to '1st shot in a specific hex during that MPH'?
 

semenza

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Just to be clear I think the "have to shoot it first" thing is fine in order to avoid the gaminess. I have always thought that the rule about which phases was / is clear in that MPh was not allowed. I don't think it is a big deal to allow it in the MPh either. I just would not have thought to even ask based on the way the rule is written.

Seth
 

Larry

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The quoted Q&A is also pretty old, the current interpretation might be different. (It would make sense, IMO)

A8.1 & C8.6
May a Gun fire WP during DFF (is DFF considered a friendly fire phase – C8.6?)? I’d say yes (which would explain exception about non moving units in A24.31).

A. Yes, provided no other non-WP DFF has occurred; C8.6. {1}
The {1} is posted on GS per sources on the first page is Klas's compilation of the PS.
 

BHBillett

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A BAZ doesn’t use a To Hit Table. It has its own TH#s printed on the counter.
So as I read your statement, you claim the Baz. does not use a to hit table because it has it's own "to hit table". It's still a to hit table isn't it? Forgive me but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Could you expand on that for me please?
 
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