Deck dice / fair dice

Eagle4ty

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I'd like every scenario to at least be winnable by both players until the last player turn.

Then at least you won't feel cheated out of your time setting up, and hopefully both players learn something from each other and enjoy the time spent.
That's why I play, if it's not going to be any fun, I'll do something else that is.
But what if that last turn is the first turn? Once played a game of Rude Mood where the game terminated at the end of Turn 1 because the French were unable to attain their VC simply because the Germans stayed alive in a CC. I certainly felt cheated even though I won, just because of the preparation and analysis time spent on setting up the scenario. Ever since that playing I have avoided scenarios with VCs of that ilk like the plague!
 

jrv

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Which is why the Continuous Shuffling Machine (CSM) was invented and put into play by many casinos. Probably a little cost prohibitive for the typical ASL player --- wait, what am I saying?
If decks were truly well-shuffled between pulls, you would get the same result as dice. The original poster wanted something different from what dice give you. So while such a machine helps a casino achieve its goal, it would not help the original poster in the least.

JR
 

jrv

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It won't change the fact that a lucky/unlucky sequence of DRs can leave a small OB decimated, though.
Depending on what length of sequence you consider and the parameters of your dice deck, a dice deck may not help you noticeably. For instance if all it takes is three "good" rolls (say in the range 2-4), then a reasonably-sized dice deck is not going to help you that much. With dice, that will be (1/6)³ = .4630%, and with a fresh deck of size 144 (four sets of thirty-six) it will be 24/144*23/143*22*142 = .4153%. That's different, but is it different enough to enhance your enjoyment?

JR
 
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von Marwitz

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It is indeed very difficult to properly shuffle a card deck, but I don't think it's that bad when you shuffle the deck before each draw - what is bad is that it's hard to break sequences and correlations, not that it's hard to randomize the top card.

But - yes. My only disagreement with JRV's latest message is over the "expected middle distribution". When rolling dice, it is to be expected that some deviation from the "expected" frequencies will be observed. If you roll your dice 72 times and get 2/12 exactly twice each, 3/11 exactly three times, etc, then your dice are really weird. I know this is something most people have trouble accepting, but this is what mathematics (and probability theory) predict - and it is what some people want to "correct" with the idea of randomizing from a deck.

(Fun story: back in the 90s when I was going to my first Magic: the Gathering tournament, I wanted to really randomize my deck, really properly. So I did: I laid my whole deck before me [face down, though it wouldn't have mattered], then I repeated this: picked a random number from 1 to 60, picked up the corresponding card; picked a random number from 1 to 59, picked up the corresponding card from those remaining; and so on. I'm not 100% sure how I did the random picking; either I rolled appropriate dice, like 2d10 to make a result between 1 and 100, with rerolls whenever needed, or I used a pocket calculator's RND function. That took me at least an hour... I never did it again, of course.)
I just watched "The Big Bang Theory". But this is better... :D

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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The reason card counting in gambling is possible is actually an economic one. I think that gaming houses would prefer a completely random system for something like blackjack, i.e. a fresh, shuffled deck for each game. The house sets the payoffs so that if everything is perfectly random, they win (in the long run). I suspect the reason they don't shuffle between each play is because of the cost. The time spent shuffling is time that could be spent gambling, i.e. it's lost potential revenue. Having vast stacks of shuffled decks would also be a logistic problem.

JR
Well, with dice decks, you don't need a dice tower. IIRC in casinos, they do have vast stacks of decks in card shuffling machines. Install those on the ASL gaming table instead of the dice towers. Surely an eye-catcher. Complaints might shift from "loud" dice towers to "loud" card-shuffling procedure, but that's really details.

I am really enjoying the thoughts here. Not that they appear to make any deeper sense to me with regard to solving the issue of the "injustice of dice". But the nerd-factor is so high, it's unreal. Keep it coming!

von Marwitz
 

djohannsen

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Depending on the parameters of the deck and the current history of the draws, a constrained-deck draw would make such a streak less likely or impossible.
Ah, sampling without replacement. Draws would most certainly not be IID, and would significantly reduce or eliminate the "lucky runs."

As a mathematician, I find it interesting how many are convinced that something is amiss when a low-probability run occurs. It takes a bit of training to understand that something would be quite obviously amiss if they did not occur.
 

jrv

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Ah, sampling without replacement. Draws would most certainly not be IID, and would significantly reduce or eliminate the "lucky runs."
"signficantly" is a key question here. Above I calculated a simple sequence of three DRs within the range of values 2-4. The likelihood was less using a dice-deck (no replacement) than with dice, but that was expected (I hope). In a statistical sense (something like 95% significance; and here I am throwing out terms without fully understanding them nor having calculated them, so I may be wrong but I think not), they are significantly different. In a gaming sense? Am I likely to notice the difference? I don't think so. Might it make me feel better? I think I would be too busy counting cards to feel one way or the other about it, but it might sooth other players.

JR
 

Paul M. Weir

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I've kept out of this one despite it being maths intensive up till now.

ASL is a game first and to some degree a simulation of warfare second (it can be argued indefinitely how much of a simulation). While many wars can be quite obviously be classed as No Contest (eg US vs Japan in WW2) due to the overall disparity of national resources and forces, at the low (tactical) and medium (operational) levels it often is simply chaotic. A sneeze or a tiny glint off a weapon by an ambusher, a broken track pin while a tank is in a narrow pass, etc. Chaos, Chaos, Chaos!

If you don't want to endure what might seem unfair outcomes then stick to strictly logical puzzles that are also quite challenging. You will have to accept that you can do everything right to win a scenario but still lose due to the multitude of decision-event forks that are randomised. It's only over a large number of games that your win/loss ratio will tend to approach something appropriate to your skill level. Even that is likely to be a moving target as you learn and/or grow more senile, your opponents also do or your circle of opponents changes.

What can you do about that? You can avoid small scenarios as the smaller number of randomised events can throw up game-overall outliers more often than large ones. The trade off is that you can play more small ones than large ones simply because of time and real life constraints. I strongly suspect that in terms of win/loss the results will be roughly the same provided you play enough. The large vs small has its trade off also in terms of enjoyment, diced scenarios vs grinding slogs. All that is assuming that you avoid the worst of the unbalanced dogs.

If you stand back and look at your overall ASL experience, you can see that individual games have a randomised element concerning win/loss, satisfaction/frustration and interest/jaded. In a sense your ASL "career" is a some what like a single scenario, only bulk will save you from random based overall skewing.

So what is to be done? I would suggest avoiding right dogs of scenarios, avoid incompatable or unpleasant opponents and possibly some subjects/theatres. Compare to that, questions of dice vs cards belong in the Titanic deck chair arrangement category. You don't suicide because the last chocolate bar/iPhone whatever/music CD sold out before you got to the store, you get on with life and visit another store or come back another day.
 

Delirium

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As a mathematician, I find it interesting how many are convinced that something is amiss when a low-probability run occurs. It takes a bit of training to understand that something would be quite obviously amiss if they did not occur.
Indeed - an important insight of behavioural science is just how poorly the human brain acts when asked to calculate probabilities (which has obvious implications for decision making). Actual Random sequences look very different to how we often assume - streaks should be expected in the course of many random draws, but your typical human mind doesn't see things that way. So, the human mind mistakenly declares 'aberration' when, actually, the absence of such streaks would be highly unlikely.
 

Philippe D.

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Actual Random sequences look very different to how we often assume - streaks should be expected in the course of many random draws, but your typical human mind doesn't see things that way.
Very true. At some point when I was teaching a course using probabilities, I would ask students to either flip a coin 100 times and record the sequence, or make up by themselves a "random" sequence - and I could tell which they had done, without using any computing equipment. I don't think I ever got it wrong. The trick was typically to look for the longest sequence of consecutive "heads"; in a made-up sequence, it would almost always be no longer than 5, which is quite unlikely in a random sequence.
 

Spencer Armstrong

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I just watched "The Big Bang Theory". But this is better... :D

von Marwitz
Virtually anything is.

Ah, sampling without replacement. Draws would most certainly not be IID, and would significantly reduce or eliminate the "lucky runs."

As a mathematician, I find it interesting how many are convinced that something is amiss when a low-probability run occurs. It takes a bit of training to understand that something would be quite obviously amiss if they did not occur.
Indeed. I go especially nuts when people say "that's dicebot for you" if it happens on VASL when real dice can and should do the same sort of thing, and, while people while, almost never does someone actually feel the dice are unfair.
 

kcole4001

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Dice are always unfair, so are cards.
The thing is, they're unfair to everybody, just not at the same time.
You want something that's really unfair, try roulette! Or the lottery.
Blackjack is unfair, but is weighted in the player's favor if you know how to do it and have the patience.

I realize that this has become an interesting theoretical discussion, rather than problem solving, since there is no actual problem to solve other than the OP's friend's attitude.
 

Yuri0352

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I realize that this has become an interesting theoretical discussion, rather than problem solving, since there is no actual problem to solve other than the OP's friend's attitude.
And there you have it folks...

Nothing more to see here, let's go, move along.
 

djohannsen

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Indeed - an important insight of behavioural science is just how poorly the human brain acts when asked to calculate probabilities (which has obvious implications for decision making). Actual Random sequences look very different to how we often assume - streaks should be expected in the course of many random draws, but your typical human mind doesn't see things that way. So, the human mind mistakenly declares 'aberration' when, actually, the absence of such streaks would be highly unlikely.
Just one more amplifying comment for those who are unfamiliar with basic probability theory: Don't bet the family nest egg on any particular low probability sequence of rolls occurring, but you can be pretty certain that some will.
 

prekarius

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Wow, this blew up quite a lot more than I thought it would.

But I appreciate it. Main takeway for me from this is the fact that dice have no memory and deck does if it is not resuffled. And possibility for card counting etc.
 

Robin Reeve

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Look at the mess you made.
If we remember that mess, we are a non shuffled deck.
If we have no memory of the mess we are dice.
If we are at home in the mess, we are officers.
If we think that this is a mass, we are spelling challenged Catholic Romans.
If we like this miss, we are channelling Psycho or we are poor shots with masochistic tendencies (not incompatible with channelling Psycho).
 
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