Deck dice / fair dice

[prekarius]

I have a friend who has a rather profound distaste for dice. "They ruin the game" and is of opinion that deck dice or some other implementation resulting in guaranteed (?) fair roll results would be much better.

My question is, are there people who play like this and if there are do you think it makes the game better / more fun?

I recently guided him and another friend through Retaking Vierville and and his frustration arose from the first roll onwards. He was rather silent though when dice were in his favor...

 

[chris_olden]

ZERO interest in “card” dice.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I think the dice is a great part of the game. There are never short of players though. I don’t put up with stuff like this in my precious downtime.

 

[Hemaelstrom]

Don't like dice, play chess or Diplomacy

 

[volgaG68]

...and his frustration arose from the first roll onwards. He was rather silent though when dice were in his favor...

I believe your post also contains the explanation and the answer to it.

 

[Jazz]

The game system depends on the expected results and probabilities associated with rolling 2D6. I know of at least one person who used to play ASL but felt the dice were not fair to him. He now does not play ASL and he is a lot happier as are his former ASL opponents (who now play other games with him).

As others have said, if you don't like dice play Chess or diplomacy.

 

[Robin Reeve]

In the old times, when my gaming table was in my bedroom - the flat was becoming small with new kids arriving - I didn't want to wake my wife up when I rolled the dice during my solo games, deep in the night or early in the morning.
I made myself a 180 card deck, with all the DR and dr results on them (i.e. 5 times the 36 DR possibilities, 30 times de dr ones - I think that I added 1d10 results on them).
I am not a good card counter, and nothing prevented me from reshuffling the deck quite often.
I used it without feeling that I was betraying the game.

But I wasn't trying to make the results "fair", as the probabilities of the 2d6 bell curve were kept - one could of course contest the fact that I should have made a much larger deck to approach the results of real dice (the cards were hand made on card stock file cards, without any printing from a computer)...

 

[Vinnie]

I have a friend who has a rather profound distaste for dice. "They ruin the game" and is of opinion that deck dice or some other implementation resulting in guaranteed (?) fair roll results would be much better.

My question is, are there people who play like this and if there are do you think it makes the game better / more fun?

I recently guided him and another friend through Retaking Vierville and and his frustration arose from the first roll onwards. He was rather silent though when dice were in his favor...

Never seen it played like that but see no reason why you could not. I just see no need for it but then play ASL your way as long as you enjoy it.

 

[kcole4001]

Games using dice are designed for the effects dice produce, therefore they are really necessary for the game to function as intended.
There is no such thing as 'fair' (whether using dice or equivalent) random results.
The notion that the game should produce fair results is not practicable, to put it politely.

Diplomacy and chess are, as already mentioned above, very good games of player skill, and both are quite enjoyable, though you will need at least four players to get the most out of Diplomacy.
You still will not experience fair results. One player will always have an advantage.

It seems what your friend wants is to win, not a fair game, since he was silent when the dice were in his favor.
With dice games, one must learn to take the good with the bad.
Complaining about the bad is poor sportsmanship.

I found dice were far more streaky in solo games, always favoring one side, while in ftf play more commonly things tended to balance out.

Since buying some good precision dice, however, I find the dice much more balanced overall.
Still, you have to take what you get.
No one wants to play against a complainer.
That really sucks the fun out of the game.

 

[von Marwitz]

I have a friend who has a rather profound distaste for dice. "They ruin the game" and is of opinion that deck dice or some other implementation resulting in guaranteed (?) fair roll results would be much better.

My question is, are there people who play like this and if there are do you think it makes the game better / more fun?

I recently guided him and another friend through Retaking Vierville and and his frustration arose from the first roll onwards. He was rather silent though when dice were in his favor...

I don't get all the fuss about precision dice, deck dice, extra random dice bots, mandatory dice towers, the opponent not touching one's dice, requiring both opponents to use the same dice, and all the other nonsense.

The impact of the difference of results between "normal" dice and precision dice will be minimal. I have yet to see those precision dice adherents present their results of a sample of 1000 DRs that compare their precision dice rolls with normal dice rolls with regard to any significant differences of the resulting bell curves. Even precision dice and all the other stuff do not save you from rolling boxcars when you least need them. I see no difference the use of decks shall ultimately make in this regard.

Fact is, that it is not at all likely the difference of results between "normal" dice and precision dice or their substitutes prove more decisive to a game compared to the good or bad decisions that the player makes for his movements, maneuvers and firing decisions. Precision dice might provide you with a 1% superior or more "just" bell-curve over a 100 rolls. This is alleviated easily by the player miscalculating or overlooking just a few DRMs or miscalculating a LOS that results in a waste of an attack or loss of a unit.

All this fuss about blaming it on the dice is really only superstition and barking up the wrong tree. One might not like it, but it is not the difference between dice, precision dice, deck cards, etc. that screw up the game. It is your decisions as a player that do it.

Just for the record:
I am not saying that a bad DR at the wrong time can't break a scenario. It sure can and it does happen. I don't even mind someone cursing his luck in such a situation. But it happens regardless of normal dice, precision dice, deck cards or whatever.

von Marwitz

 

[Steven Pleva]

I could see a triple deck (108 cards) being a successful implementation for ASL. You'd bury a reshuffle card somewhere in the bottom 20% of the deck so as to eliminate any card counting. I would still use dice for wind change, fire spreading, random direction and random selection dice rolls. I would play using this setup.

That being said, I think the timing of dice is more important than the average.
Cheers,
Steve

 

[xenovin]

use precision dice and/or play a monster scenario where all the DRs average out. Also keep a log of all the rolls so you both can go back and see bell curve. this may keep his mind off the "bad" rolls. But we've all rolled boxcars three times in a row. Its just a game.

 

[von Marwitz]

That being said, I think the timing of dice is more important than the average.
Cheers,
Steve

This.
Deck dice, normal dice, precision dice or dice bots do not do not give a damn about which roll is important or unimportant for you.

von Marwitz

 

[Robin Reeve]

I like precision dice for aesthetical reasons.
I am very conscious that the difference with "normal" dice is extremely small - out of the range of the usual scenario, which will only have some hundreds of rolls.

But I don't see why anyone could get mad at me for my choice.
We all like to do some "tuning" around the basic ASL gear.
Inversely, if a player uses the original - quite ugly - dice provided in BV and uses a box lid to throw them, I don't see the least problem.
Perhaps would I make a remark if he throws the dice across the map, as it can disrupt the unit stacks.

 

[prekarius]

I believe your post also contains the explanation and the answer to it.

This. And I knew what my opinion on the matter was. The purpose for this thread was more to see if I could gather some more counters the next time we play, ASL or something else.

Thank you all for the comments.

 

[Jeff Sewall]

It's not so much the card counting, but the self-correcting nature of a deck. Once a series of low "rolls" have come out, the subsequent rolls are significantly skewed high.

Fair dice, when fairly rolled, have no memory. Unless you shuffle the dice deck after every "roll", that is not the case.

 

[Matt Book]

THE FUTURE OF ASL RANDOMIZATION

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

It's not so much the card counting, but the self-correcting nature of a deck. Once a series of low "rolls" have come out, the subsequent rolls are significantly skewed high.

Fair dice, when fairly rolled, have no memory. Unless you shuffle the dice deck after every "roll", that is not the case.

Unless you reshuffle, you’ve just introduced card counting to ASL. It doesn’t need it. And if you reshuffle, there’s no meaningful difference.

 

[jrv]

It's not so much the card counting, but the self-correcting nature of a deck. Once a series of low "rolls" have come out, the subsequent rolls are significantly skewed high.

The nice think about the self-correcting nature of decks is that if you pull boxcars to malf a weapon, you can be pleased to know that pulling a two on the next wind change DR is just that much more likely.

JR

 

[Steven Pleva]

You guys are objecting to something I've remedied in post 11. There is a workable solution to both issues. Admittedly, you are trading one set of anomalies for another...
Steve