Death Metal / Doom Metal

Manilianus

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[video=youtube;AR-sMAI740E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR-sMAI740E&feature=related[/video]

What a tune!
 

Dr Zaius

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Re: What Are you Listening to now?

[video=youtube;AR-sMAI740E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR-sMAI740E&feature=related[/video]

What a tune!
I just listened to samples of their stuff on iTunes and wasn't crazy about a lot of it. However, this particular song is great and a lot darker than their other material, so this one I had to buy. Sounds almost like melodic Death Metal / Doom Metal to me.

Love the cover art, too.
 

Manilianus

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Re: What Are you Listening to now?

I just listened to samples of their stuff on iTunes and wasn't crazy about a lot of it. However, this particular song is great and a lot darker than their other material, so this one I had to buy. Sounds like melodic Death Metal / Doom Metal to me.

Love the cover art, too.
Agree. I'll search their entire discography (I have not much to do today), maybe they have more of tracks like this one.
 

Dr Zaius

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Re: What Are you Listening to now?

Here's some similar stuff I found with a little searching.

[video=youtube;qRxW1zXDCoE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qRxW1zXDCoE#t=11 6s[/video]

This one from Saturnus is really good. The extended guitar solo at around the 3m mark is fantastic. This guy gets some incredible sustain on his notes; I would like to know what kind of setup he uses to get that.
 

Dr Zaius

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[video=youtube;b_JD6gtr-U8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_JD6gtr-U8[/video]

This one is a little faster than what they normally play. Most of their stuff is very slow, dark, and melodic, which is what I like. I don't like shredding-type metal, it just sounds like noise to me.
 

Dr Zaius

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[video=youtube;aJRTEXJUMMY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJRTEXJUMMY[/video]

Another good one.
 

Dr Zaius

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[video=youtube;xBMnqZtHNOk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBMnqZtHNOk&feature=related[/video]

For some reason, this one sounds like a movie soundtrack to me.
 

Dr Zaius

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Peste noire!
You can keep that. They're a black metal band, which is almost the polar opposite of melodic death metal.

I vastly prefer the really slow, extended guitar riffs and more complex harmonies of the melodic "Scandinavian style" over the fast tempos and shredding found in black metal and similar thrash metal genres. All that shredding and shrieking starts to sound like a cacophony of jumbled notes with some random screaming thrown in for good measure. But to each his own.

While we're on the subject of black metal, what do you think of the politics often associated with that particular underground style? With old school metal bands like Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, and Ozzy Osbourne, most people I know found the dark nature of the riffs an lyrics to be nothing more than harmless fun. But there's a pretty huge difference between that stuff and black metal, and it's kind of impossible to ignore the whole black metal culture and politics and just focus on the music. The politics and message of black metal are an inherent part of the music itself.
 

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You can keep that. They're a black metal band, which is almost the polar opposite of melodic death metal.
I'm well aware of the various flavors of metal (i.e. don't need wikipedia to tell me!). Though, to say that one is a polar opposite of the other is a bit of a stretch, IMO. There's plenty of BM that could easily be considered melodic (hell, the band I just mentioned IS!). However, sorry for the slight derailment.

I vastly prefer the really slow, extended guitar riffs and more complex harmonies of the melodic "Scandinavian style" over the fast tempos and shredding found in black metal and similar thrash metal genres. All that shredding and shrieking starts to sound like a cacophony of jumbled notes with some random screaming thrown in for good measure. But to each his own.
I wouldn't call black metal a thrash metal genre. There is PLENTY of thrash metal present, but some bands don't even have that feel at all. There's plenty of DOOM laden BM out there. What is funny to me is that Death Metal often all sounds the same to ME. Yes, even the melodic bands can get that way. I admit that I do like the Gothenburg style, though (Dark Tranquillity, At the Gates, older In Flames) and I LOVE Amon Amarth.

While we're on the subject of black metal, what do you think of the politics often associated with that particular underground style? With old school metal bands like Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, and Ozzy Osbourne, most people I know found the dark nature of the riffs an lyrics to be nothing more than harmless fun. But there's a pretty huge difference between that stuff and black metal, and it's kind of impossible to ignore the whole black metal culture and politics and just focus on the music. The politics and message of black metal are an inherent part of the music itself.
I listen to it for the music -- I do identify with the style and definitely can feel and see the difference between different artists and whatnot. Most of the message and politics of the music are certainly pretty abhorrent (and I'd change it if I could), though I admit to being a bit fond of misanthropy and end of the world themes.

And to be fair, the band that STARTED black metal (and viking metal) basically had the same attitude that you mentioned above. I'm speaking of Bathory (depending on who you ask, some will say it was Mayhem, but to me they were really just putting out shitty death metal...), the mastermind of which started this music when he was 15. There's a really good outpouring of thoughts on his "Blood On Ice" album where he explains that the themes were all pretty much a joke to him (though, he didn't regret any of it). He mentions how he'd get letters from people that thought he was a nazi living in a cave, or other crazy things. Kinda funny if you really think about it.

Interestingly, IMO some of the attitudes (at least when talking about Norway) do make some sense when you consider history. I don't want to downplay that much of it is just flat out wrong, but it came out of SOMETHING. I also have this theory that many of the artists are bi-polar, too.

In short, I agree with you that much of this stuff is pretty gnarly and maybe even shouldn't be allowed to exist.. but, I don't think it's overly difficult to separate the music from the message in many cases at all.
 

Dr Zaius

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That's good stuff, Morbii. I want to keep this discussion going because I find the relationship between art (in all its forms) and politics/worldview to be fascinating and informative. In my experience, the kind of music a person listens to says much about them and their interests, and I think the same can be said about other forms of art. In other words, if you were to go through my music collection, my art collection, and the art I have personally done, you would know a lot about me.

I wouldn't call black metal a thrash metal genre. There is PLENTY of thrash metal present, but some bands don't even have that feel at all. There's plenty of DOOM laden BM out there. What is funny to me is that Death Metal often all sounds the same to ME.
There is definitely some overlap, but then all metal genres share at least a few common elements. While there is heavy use of distortion and bass and an overall dark vibe, I find Saturnus to be a very, very different animal than, say, Peste noire. It's kind of like saying AC/DC and Guns 'n Roses sound similar because they're both rock bands.

Morbii said:
I LOVE Amon Amarth.
I only have one song from them, called Doom Over Dead Man. It's sort of okay, but I need to listen to some of their other stuff to know if I like them.

Stuff like Type O Negative's Suspended in Dusk is getting way too out there for me. I like dark and I like end of the world themes, but that's getting just a bit too over the top for my tastes. The truth is, I'm one of those guys who tends to like one or two tunes from a given band, which is part of the reason my iTunes collection is so diverse and wild. There are exceptions to that rule, but they're few and far between. So I tend to focus on individual songs rather than bands.

Morbii said:
I listen to it for the music -- I do identify with the style and definitely can feel and see the difference between different artists and whatnot. Most of the message and politics of the music are certainly pretty abhorrent (and I'd change it if I could), though I admit to being a bit fond of misanthropy and end of the world themes.
I generally listen to music for the music and tend to ignore the lyrics most of the time. I either don't understand what the author's point was or I don't care. Take Pink Floyd's The Wall album. Roger Waters is a great songwriter and gets really deep with all his existential self-discovery, anti-authority stuff, but the truth is I have no idea what the hell Roger was really trying to say. Seriously. And I don't dwell on it too much, I just love the melodies and Gilmour's brilliant guitar solos. And AC/DC's music is always about three things: girls, partying, and hard rock. But I still love it, even though some people say it's formulaic and simple. Sometimes simple is good.

And yes, I realize I just contradicted myself by saying I'm interested in how art and music relate to worldview and then went on to say I couldn't care less about lyrics. I'll let you know when I figure that out. I guess it's fair to say I care about the lyrics and overall message once it reaches a certain critical mass where the politics and culture of the music become one with the music. Peste noire is a good example of that, I think. That stuff is pretty fringe, man.

Morbii said:
Interestingly, IMO some of the attitudes (at least when talking about Norway) do make some sense when you consider history. I don't want to downplay that much of it is just flat out wrong, but it came out of SOMETHING. I also have this theory that many of the artists are bi-polar, too.
Okay, but I would like to hear more on this. Are you talking about the really fringe, hardcore anti-Christian, anti-authority stuff with blood onstage and all that, or were you going in a different direction? If so, what do you think the "something" you referred to above is? What are these people rebelling against?

Morbii said:
In short, I agree with you that much of this stuff is pretty gnarly and maybe even shouldn't be allowed to exist.. but, I don't think it's overly difficult to separate the music from the message in many cases at all.
I hate to say any art shouldn't exist, even the intolerable. But I do find a lot of the bizarre stuff that some metal bands fall into more than a bit repellant. I like dark art and end of the world themes as much as the next guy, however, when it gets mixed up in overtly anti-religious zealotry and racism and crazy fringe behavior, then I lose interest.
 

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That's good stuff, Morbii. I want to keep this discussion going because I find the relationship between art (in all its forms) and politics/worldview to be a fascinating and informative. In my experience, the kind of music a person listens to says much about them and their interests. I think the same can be said about other forms of art. In other words, if you were to go through my music collection, my art collection, and the art I have personally done, you would know a lot about me.
This does make a lot of sense to me too. But (as you explain below), I don't think it shows the whole picture. Knowing I listen to this type of music may just mean that I like the sounds of extreme music. It may also mean I have issues with depression (given some of the nature). Or it could mean I'm evil. I'll take a combination of the first two (though, if part 2, it's probably more of a driver than a being cause of). I'm also more or less a misanthropist myself when it comes to humanity. I like people (I don't think I hate ANYONE in specific), but humanity itself is just pure evil - I have experienced this fact over and over.

On the flip side, I HAVE, in my life, met a dude that was originally into stuff like Opeth. I saw him every few months (he was going to the school I was) and I saw him get into more mainstream BM (well, I think right around when he started listening to that is really where I met him) and eventually delve into the really crazy raw, underground stuff. For that guy, I think it was *different*. He was more like you described in that the music seemed to really control him. HOWEVER, as you also allude, certainly there are Dead Heads that became acid freaks and those that didn't. If you saw me walking down the street, you wouldn't know that one of my favorite musical genres was black metal (and, that's DEFINITELY not the only genre I listen to!).

There is definitely some overlap, but then all metal genres share at least a few common elements. While there is heavy use of distortion and bass and an overall dark vibe, I find Saturnus to be a very, very different animal than, say, Peste noire. It's kind of like saying AC/DC and Guns 'n Roses sound similar because they're both rock bands.
I agree that it's different, but just like AC/DC and Guns & Roses aren't polar opposites... well, you get the point. Though, this is really just semantics, I think.

I only have one song from them, called Doom Over Dead Man. It's sort of okay, but I need to listen to some of their other stuff to know if I like them.
I have to be honest, their last few albums have been REALLY weak as compared to some of their earlier stuff. Twilight of the Thunder God was a HUGE disappointment. I think Surtur Rising was an improvement to that one, but you gotta go before that to really hear their amazing stuff. I suggest this (and it even fits into the death metal theme of the thread!):

[video=youtube;VY1doMZrq10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY1doMZrq10[/video]

Stuff like Type O Negative's Suspended in Dusk is getting way too out there for me. I like dark and I like end of the world themes, but that's getting just a bit too over the top for my tastes. The truth is, I'm one of those guys who tends to like one or two tunes from a given band, which is part of the reason my iTunes collection is so diverse and wild. There are exceptions to that rule, but they're few and far between.
Interesting. I often like all or most of certain albums. And my iTunes is no slouch (though, it mostly comes from ripped CDs). I don't mean to portray that I *only* like black metal. Recently I've gotten into some Japanese psychadelic rock, Spanish boroque (with Lutes), some classical, noise pop/rock (TOTALLY different from what the moniker invokes), and even guitar-driven tribal music from Africa (which, the first time I spun a disk from the band Group Doueh, I had GOOSE BUMPS). Lately I've been on this HUGE musical exploration. It's been pretty intense.

I generally listen to music for the music and tend to ignore the lyrics most of the time. I either don't understand what the author's point was or I don't care. Take Pink Floyd's The Wall album. Roger Waters is a great songwriter and gets really deep with all his existential self-discovery, anti-authority stuff, but the truth is I have no idea what the hell Roger was really trying to say. Seriously. And I don't dwell on it too much, I just love the melodies and Gilmour's brilliant guitar solos. And AC/DC's music is always about three things: girls, partying, and hard rock. But I still love it, even though some people say it's formulaic and simple. Sometimes simple is good.

And yes, I realize I just contradicted myself by saying I'm interested in how art and music relate to worldview and then went on to say I couldn't care less about lyrics. I'll let you know when I figure that out. I guess it's fair to say I care about the lyrics and overall message once it reaches a certain critical mass where the politics and culture of the music become one with the music. Peste noire is a good example of that, I think. That stuff is pretty fringe, man.
I think that's mostly my point too. I don't care much about the lyrics. Ok, I take that back somewhat. Sometimes I will take pause and care, but I usually don't bother looking at them (at least when it comes to BM) because I don't really want to know. I think the harshness and vocal style of this music can allow one to do that more easily, too, since you often don't know what they're saying (and, doubly so if it's not even in English -- for me anyway). Recently, I was listening to a track from this really great album I picked up. This CD was playing nonstop for a few days. I thought I heard something in particular and went to look at the lyrics. Sure enough, it was pretty fricken bad. While I still do like the music, I think I've only played that disc once since then.

As far as the critical mass, I think death metal can also have similar followings. But let's not stop there: look at stuff like Grateful Dead even. Look at Justin Beiber and Britney Spears! Some people just listen to the music, other people start dressing like whores. So, I think a LOT of music can do that. I think it probably depends on the person. I'm also sort of thinking that it might even SEEM that way moreso with extreme metal simply because it CAN be offensive.

But what about horror films (or even non-horror films)? Though, to contradict myself, I suppose it also depends on the intent of the director/writer.

I agree that PN is pretty fringe, and I know what they're about, but, frankly, I don't know what they're saying and I don't want to. The music itself is phenominal and I don't want to ruin it by knowing.

As per above, I do take issue with it sometimes (and maybe more than I'm letting on). I think mostly I'm just numb to it, though.

Okay, but I would like to hear more on this. Are you talking about the really fringe, hardcore anti-Christian, anti-authority stuff with blood onstage and all that, or were you going in a different direction? If so, what do you think the "something" you referred to above is? What are these people rebelling against?
Yes, that was more or less what I was referring to -- well, sort of. I was thinking second wave black metal, like Dark Throne and bands like that (they may have had blood, I'm not sure). I wasn't referring to the NS crap, which I'm sure comes from somewhere and something as well, but it's probably far, FAR more misguided. If you look at some of these bands from Norway and think about all the church burnings and whatnot: some of this comes out of what happened in the past in that country. So-called "Christians" coming in and spreading the word through the sword. It has a lasting effect on a culture. Dont' get me wrong: I am NOT against Christianity in any way (in fact, I am one). I am simply saying that I can sort of understand where some of the hate comes from. HOWEVER (since I realize what your next point will be), this happened LONG ago. It's not also something that Jesus would have approved of. I agree. Get over it.

Maybe some of it also hearkens similar to Lavey's movement in the 60's (which, as I'm sure you know, still exists - many of the euro bands clash with his ideas, btw). You have people that don't want to give in to the feelings of the majority, so they "rebel".

I hate to say any art shouldn't exist, even the intolerable. But I do find a lot of the bizarre stuff that some metal bands fall into more than a bit repellant. I like dark art and end of the world themes as much as the next guy, however, when it gets mixed up in overtly anti-religious zealotry and racism and crazy fringe behavior, then I lose interest.
Yes, I understand. It took me a long time to come to peace with some of it - I don't like many of the themes either. For a long time I stayed away from most of it, too. I guess during some of my exploration I've, well, grown a bit numb and expanded my horizons while coming to peace with liking just the music itself.

HOWEVER, sadly I don't think it's just the BM scene that is involved here. MANY, many thrash and death metal bands have the same themes and the same hatred. Some elements of the punk and hardcore scene could EASILY be seen the same way as well. I think there are some big groups from the experimental, IDM, and electronic realms, too (Lustmord, for example?). Hell, even take a look at modern "normal" music like NIN or Marylin Manson. BM is often way more overt about it, but there are plenty of other examples to choose from, I think.

edit:
As far as my bi-polar theory, I think it makes some sense. I have a few friends that are seriously, hardcore bi-polar. I've seen what it can do (in fact, one of them is very much into BM). I've also seen pictures of BM artists with slit wrists. Suicides happen here and there. There are plenty of suicidal BM bands, etc.

edit2:
You know, I also want to go back to your original point some. While I don't agree with the majority of what many of these artists have to say, I will say this:
1. I have a very dark sense of humor. VERY dark. While I don't think that many of the things that I will joke about are actually, truly funny, it's an outlet for this cruel world, I guess.
2. I am, in some ways, fascinated with "death". Skulls, skeletons and the like (but I don't take this to an extreme).
3. I do like dark, end of the world themes. Hell, I WISH there was a zombie attack!

So, maybe this is partly the missing link. I view the above as pretty much harmless and certainly not hateful. But yeah, it IS dark. And maybe that's what drives me to like some of this music, even if I can't identify with the lyrical content.
 
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And for a second, "happier" thread, consider the following:

Not all of these bands should really be labeled with the same brush. I'm going to go over a few bands (that aren't Christian extreme metal bands, as PLENTY do exist, which is oft called "unblack", and there are several amazing unblack bands too, if you care to know some).

1. Immortal

This band had some beginnings that could have gone elsewhere, but they created a fantasy realm and ran with it. They generally refer to themselves as "holocaust metal" (no relation to The Holocaust) and have created the realm named "Blashrykh" where they are demons in a cold, mountainous winter landscape (which, yeah, they pretty much live in in real life). This to me is something where most of these artists SHOULD go in that they are evoking fantasy whilst making amazing music. And yes, Abbath from Immortal's biggest influence is probably Ozzy, which is maybe why it's not as "serious". When they play live, they consider themselves "demons" and their corpse paint is really "war paint". I really respect this band and their music is really phenominal. At one point they even ditched their earlier logo that contained the inverted cross and pentegram and went with a more "user friendly" logo (though, in some of the more recent t-shirts you'll see some of the old symbols present).

2. Happy Days

One of many "suicidal black metal" bands. I don't think many of these bands are quite as overt as per "above" (or even care to offend so much). And while the topic is still very, very negative, it's not as confrontational and something that might more likely occur in many, many other bands. I bring to your attention in this case the track "Abigail", which is mostly an instrumental track save ONE WORD ("Abigail") amongst a clip from the film Closer with Natalie Portman and Jude Law. It's completely STRIKING and very emotional (at least for me). I find it VERY powerful (even if it evokes a feeling of negativity; when he says "Abigail" and everything before it, it's so haunting and reminds me of moments past).


3. Nazgul

Here we have a band that is making self-professed "Orkish Black Metal", which is anti-elven black metal. It's basically like listening to a black metal band except they're singing about hatred towards/killing/raping elves. The music is somewhat symphonic and folky and the vocals are some of the most bizarre I've ever heard. In addition, all of the lyrics are sung in latin. It's definitely "anti-elf", and while one could probably draw parallels, it's not overt. It's more like a movie in that sense where the artists aren't completely serious about what they're saying necessarily as they aren't really trying to offend most people.

4. Woven Hand

Ok, so this band is not a metal band AT ALL. In fact, it's a Christian folk band. Why do I bring it up? Well, I bring it up, because this artist is pretty dark. And well, really, REALLY good. So good, in fact, that a band like Marduk has covered them. What!? Yep, I said it. The satanic band Marduk has covered them. In addition, I believe the pagan metal band Primordial is also into him. Wow, how music moves us, right?

Here's what I regard as a truly amazing interview with the mastermind behind this band (David Eugene Edwards; and he also had another band before it called 16 Horsepower):
http://transylvanianhungerrr.blogspot.com/2010/11/wovenhand.html?m=1

Taken from interview:

Maybe they’re not that evil?
Look, I know for a fact that everyone is evil. I know that they are. And I also know that people cannot un-become evil by doing rituals, by doing penitence, by doing confession or good deeds, by being generous. I know that none of that, will ever make someone not an evil person. Only what God has done for me, makes me a holy person. Not what I do, but what He has done. As far as these bands are concerned, I know where they’re coming from. I know that rage. They hate religion and I hate religion too. But the church’s deeds are not God’s deeds.

Woven Hand song (Oil on Panel):
{see later post}

Marduk Cover (Oil on Panel):
{see later post}
Though, to be fair, they pussied out on the lyric:
Yeshua
Yeshua
Where you go take me with thee
They say "Yeshua Yeshua Where..." and then I can't tell what.

An exerpt from an interview with Marduk shows this:
MSH: I listen to what I regard as the best black and death metal, for example right now I'm listening to a lot of early Morbid Angel stuff. _Altars of Madness_ and _Domination_ still remain very powerful and very heavy. I also like dark and powerful industrial music, I like classical music -- I like everything that I can find that has a soul. For example, I like two bands who are actually very Christian, but are still a lot darker than many so-called black metal bands: Sixteen Horsepower and Woven Hand.

CoC: Never heard them.

MSH: Oh my God, you should really check them out -- they're really dark and really Christian, but still extremely fascinating. I'm going to see them live on Sunday; it's really bizarre music. I like anything that can really paint pictures in my mind.​

(Full interview: http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/articles/chats/1-680_marduk.aspx)

And,well, to close it off: let me show you my favorite track from 16 Horsepower's first album:
[video=youtube;f-vpAn15-vE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-vpAn15-vE[/video]
 
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Morbii

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Only one video per post, so my next 5 posts contain the accompanying videos:

Immortal:
[video=youtube;BstHbbpq07s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BstHbbpq07s[/video]
 

Morbii

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Abigail by Happy Days:

[video=youtube;W7H4NtOySoA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7H4NtOySoA[/video]
 

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Nazgul (Orkish black metal):

[video=youtube;whs-YwFIKho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whs-YwFIKho[/video]
 

Morbii

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Woven Hand Oil on Panel original:

[video=youtube;d4jbY8SVDJ0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4jbY8SVDJ0[/video]
 

Morbii

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Marduk cover of Oil on Panel:

[video=youtube;CrgEBlnLWcE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrgEBlnLWcE[/video]
 
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