Dead before or after searching?

[Byzantine]

A squad attempts to search a building location by expending 1 MF to do so. I Def first fire with a mortar in the squad's hex and score a KIA. Does the squad get to search the bulding location or is it considered dead before the search is completed?

 

[asler]

A squad attempts to search a building location by expending 1 MF to do so. I Def first fire with a mortar in the squad's hex and score a KIA. Does the squad get to search the bulding location or is it considered dead before the search is completed?

As a general guideline, the unit has to survive any defensive first fire against it (and usually un-pinned) in order to gain the benefit of what it is attempting (searching, clearance attempts etc.). I can only think of two things (location control and smoke grenades - although there may be more) that happen regardless of defensive first fire.

Chris

 

[jrv]

As a general guideline, the unit has to survive any defensive first fire against it (and usually un-pinned) in order to gain the benefit of what it is attempting (searching, clearance attempts etc.). I can only think of two things (location control and smoke grenades - although there may be more) that happen regardless of defensive first fire.

In general a unit completes its movement action unless the rule says otherwise. So for instance, entering a new location, placing smoke grenades (there's nothing there that says it overrides a general rule), loading [D6.4], unloading [D6.5], Recovery [A4.44] and sD. The one notable exception is DC placement, which explicitly says the unit must survive "unbroken and unpinned." [A23.3]

Clearance also explicitly says the activity is discontinued when the unit "is pinned, or is no longer Good Order." [B24.7]

So I would argue that Search completes before DFF in the absence of a rule.

JR

 

[Jazz]

In general a unit completes its movement action unless the rule says otherwise. So for instance, entering a new location, placing smoke grenades (there's nothing there that says it overrides a general rule), loading [D6.4], unloading [D6.5], Recovery [A4.44] and sD. The one notable exception is DC placement, which explicitly says the unit must survive "unbroken and unpinned." [A23.3]

Clearance also explicitly says the activity is discontinued when the unit "is pinned, or is no longer Good Order." [B24.7]

So I would argue that Search completes before DFF in the absence of a rule.

JR

Yup, JR has it right. If a unit specifically needs to survive un-pinned, un-broken, un-dead to complete an action, the rules specifically call it out. Otherwise, the shot takes place after the completion of the MP expenditure.

 

[Will Fleming]

Damn, Jazz is eating his wheaties too! You (and the others) beat me!

 

[Treadhead]

survive ... un-dead

Now that's quite a feat!

 

[jwb3]

In general a unit completes its movement action unless the rule says otherwise. So for instance, entering a new location, placing smoke grenades (there's nothing there that says it overrides a general rule), loading [D6.4], unloading [D6.5], Recovery [A4.44] and sD. The one notable exception is DC placement, which explicitly says the unit must survive "unbroken and unpinned." [A23.3]

Any chance you could cite chapter and verse on this one?

For many years now, I have been unable to find anywhere that the ASLRB (1st edition anyway) actually gives such a general rule. I and my friends play it that way too, and I made a note in the DC rules about "Note what an exception this is!" But darned if I can figure out where the general rule comes from.


John

 

[mgmasl]

A squad attempts to search a building location by expending 1 MF to do so. I Def first fire with a mortar in the squad's hex and score a KIA. Does the squad get to search the bulding location or is it considered dead before the search is completed?

I think you have to roll for searching and casualties before the DFF, the same as for smoke grenades placement: you roll for smoke grenades and then receive the fire, if any...

So IMO the searching is not affected by the KIA.

Miguel

 

[Byzantine]

Thanks for the help everyone. In the end i came to the same conclusion my self. That is successfully searching the location before getting killed by the shot, although i have to admit that i spent some time arguing with my opponent.
The whole fuss was due to the fact that this particular search took place right in front of the chemist's shop in Red Barrikades and it revealed three locations (cellar, ground, 1st level) which i had struggled hard (mainly with my trigger happy instincts) to maintain concealed two hexes away from two kill stacks with hmgs and two 10-2 german leaders.. Anyway, thanks to everyone again.

 

[jrv]

Discussing "principle" that an action is completed when it is announced unless the rules say otherwise

Any chance you could cite chapter and verse on this one?

Not really. But it would be odd if it were otherwise. Consider spending a MP for startup. From the outside there would be no indication that the crew was planning to start. So how could they "know" that the vehicle was planning to start and fire DFF just in time to get the range benefits?

For many years now, I have been unable to find anywhere that the ASLRB (1st edition anyway) actually gives such a general rule. I and my friends play it that way too, and I made a note in the DC rules about "Note what an exception this is!" But darned if I can figure out where the general rule comes from.

Me too.

JR