DC placement and leader movement bonus

Juan SantaX

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Hi again!

4.12 LEADER BONUS: Any Good Order MMC which begins the MPh/APh and ends its MPh/APh stacked with a leader of the same nationality in the same Location, at the same level (2.8), and with the same wire/entrenchment/panji/paddy status is eligible for a two MF bonus during that MPh/APh, provided it expends all its MF while moving in a combined stack with that leader, and does not expend any of its MF to mount, ride, or dismount any form of conveyance.
This one is really silly, but I need to be sure... (its like like when you shoot at a dummy stack: you know it is dummy, but you have to shoot...)

The stack of an AE + DC plus leader goes for double time, so they get 8 MF. They move 6 MF and get adjacent to a enemy stack in woods. The AE can place the DC on the enemy woods, as they have moved as a stack, and the placement cost of 2 MF to place the DC (the 7 and 8 MF spent) is done while moving in a combined stack with that leader, even if the leader don´t spend the last 2 MF

Right?

The leader cannot be shot in the 7 and 8 MF spent.

Right?

TIA
 

Wayne

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Your Leader would need to stack-move still w/your AE as the AE places the DC, so, the leader =would= be subject to D1F re MFs 7 & 8.
 

Jazz

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Not right. The leader would need to participate in the movement to place the DC and would consequently be subject to D-fire on MFs 7 and 8.
 

ibncalb

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The leader and the AE function as one stack. If you shoot at one you shoot at both
 

Juan SantaX

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ouch!

But the AE gets 2mf from the leader and 2mf from double time… And the leader was not carring the DC…

So I was wrong?
 

Wayne

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The AE gets the Leader MF Bonus only if the AE's movement begins and ends w/the Leader.

In your OP, you implied you wanted to divide your stack (i.e., your AE continuing, but not w/the Leader).

By so-dividing, the AE loses the Leader MF bonus as soon as the Leader leaves the stack of the AE. (The fact that the Leader chit never leaves the Location of the AE is irrelevant in this case -- as soon as you say the Leader is not moving w/the AE as it places the DC, you are implying they are no longer stack-moving -- and that means the AE loses the 2 MF Leader MF Bonus after the AE has already spent 6 MF)

IOW, the AE cannot spend MF 7 & 8 w/out the Leader continuing to stack-move w/it the entire time.
Hi again!

4.12 LEADER BONUS: Any Good Order MMC which begins the MPh/APh and ends its MPh/APh stacked with a leader of the same nationality in the same Location, at the same level (2.8), and with the same wire/entrenchment/panji/paddy status is eligible for a two MF bonus during that MPh/APh, provided it expends all its MF while moving in a combined stack with that leader, and does not expend any of its MF to mount, ride, or dismount any form of conveyance.
 

Juan SantaX

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Ok, Im wrong, I see it.

But I thought that even both units are in the same hex, expending MF, they arent doing the same thing, so only the one expending the MF to place it was subject to fire.

A concealed 9-1 and DC-carrying 838 assault move into a building, then the 838 attempts placement of the DC in a neighboring rubble hex. Does the leader lose concealment? Per A4.12 it seems he must spend 3 MF in the building hex, at the same time as the 838, but A23.3 suggests that only the “carrying Infantry unit” actually places the DC, thereby incurring concealment loss.

A. No.
 

Wayne

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In that Q&A you cite, the concealed 9-1 is still stack-moving w/the 8-3-8 (and thus subject to D1F w/it). That's the only way the 8-3-8 can still claim AM as it places the DC
 

Paul John

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I agree with Wayne, but am still surprised the 9-1 doesn't lose concealment as it accompanies the AE placing the DC. I guess there is moving together and MOVING TOGETHER.
 

Stewart

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W
The stack of an AE + DC plus leader goes for double time, so they get 8 MF. They move 6 MF and get adjacent to a enemy stack in woods. The AE can place the DC on the enemy woods, as they have moved as a stack, and the placement cost of 2 MF to place the DC (the 7 and 8 MF spent) is done while moving in a combined stack with that leader, even if the leader don´t spend the last 2 MF

Right?

The leader cannot be shot in the 7 and 8 MF spent.

Right?

TIA
What you should've done. Is DT the squad and NOT the leader....then upon reaching the location where they expend the 6th MF to enter, the Squad still has 2MF to spend...the leader does not....Place the DC then...The leader would not be expending MF.
 

Wayne

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...upon reaching the location where they expend the 6th MF to enter, the Squad still has 2MF to spend...
No, they don't.

Effectively, Leader Bonus MFs are always spent last. So, w/out the stack-moving-Leader Leader Bonus, the AE is done after 6MF and cannot spend 2MF more to place the DC.
 

apbills

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4.12 LEADER BONUS: Any Good Order MMC which begins the MPh/APh and ends its MPh/APh stacked with a leader of the same nationality in the same Location, at the same level (2.8), and with the same Wire/entrenchment/panji/paddy status is eligible for a two MF bonus during that MPh/APh, provided it expends all its MF while moving in a combined stack with that leader, and does not expend any of its MF to mount, ride, or dismount any form of conveyance.

If it does not move in a stack with the leader for their entire MPh, no bonus.
 

Stewart

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4.12 LEADER BONUS: Any Good Order MMC which begins the MPh/APh and ends its MPh/APh stacked with a leader of the same nationality in the same Location, at the same level (2.8), and with the same Wire/entrenchment/panji/paddy status is eligible for a two MF bonus during that MPh/APh, provided it expends all its MF while moving in a combined stack with that leader, and does not expend any of its MF to mount, ride, or dismount any form of conveyance.

If it does not move in a stack with the leader for their entire MPh, no bonus.
Does it say that though?
provided IT expends all ITS MF. The stack is still combined. some parts just stopped.


If what you are saying is the case, then IF squad A ( of a stack of LDR, A, B) drops smoke say in MF expenditure 2...the leader is also "dropping smoke"... and then on MF 4 when different squad B drops smoke, the Leader expends the MF but squad A does not?
 

Wayne

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... IF squad A ( of a stack of LDR, A, B) drops smoke say in MF expenditure 2...the leader is also "dropping smoke"... and then on MF 4 when different squad B drops smoke, the Leader expends the MF but squad A does not?
Provided they are to remain in the Stack, they all expend MF concurrently, though not necessarily for the same purpose -- or for any individual purpose as some other stack element does some non-displacement individual thing (e.g. smoke grenade, DC placement, Recovery, etc).

IOW, a stack element may expend MF doing nothing as some other stack element does a thing.

Similarly, a Leader in a stack may expend MF doing nothing as one or more other elements do some whatever.

In all cases,
(a) stack integrity continues and
(b) element(s) expending MF doing something or nothing are subject to D1F vs those MFs they spend in that way.

Getting back to the OP EX...
The stack of an AE + DC plus leader goes for double time, so they get 8 MF. They move 6 MF and get adjacent to an enemy stack in woods.
All MF so far are perhaps spent on displacement, so this so far is easy to see -- they are stack-moving and at each call of MF spent, they are collectively subject to D1F.
The AE can place the DC on the enemy woods, as they have moved as a stack, and the placement cost of 2 MF to place the DC (the 7 and 8 MF spent) is done while moving in a combined stack with that leader, even if the leader don´t spend the last 2 MF

Right?
Wrong.

The AE needs Leader Bonus MF, so the Leader does continue to move in a combined stack and does spend MF concurrently w/the AE as the AE alone places the DC. In this instance, the Leader is moving (and subject to D1F) but doing nothing of note (except in this instance providing requisite Bonus MF to the AE).
The leader cannot be shot in the 7 and 8 MF spent.

Right?
Wrong. The accompanying Leader is indeed spending 2 MF and thus is subject to D1F risk vs those MF spent.

=-=-=

The above is just one example.

In the realm of non-displacement MF expenditures, many combinations are possible (including stack element MF expenditures doing nothing) but in all cases if Leader Bonus MF are required then a Leader is necessarily expending MF the entire time and thus is subject to D1F along the entire way.

[The moment a stack element does not expend MF as another element does, stack integrity is lost and the stack divides -- as per A4.2
eASLRB said:
... Otherwise, units may choose to move together as a stack at their own risk and may break up the stack during the MPh to continue to move separately ...
Any that do so-continue to move separately but w/out a Leader cannot use Leader Bonus MF.]
 
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