Dash Legality

[commissar1969]

The Dash rule states:

4.63 DASH: Infantry may declare a Dash through a road Location if it declares a Dash move to a particular location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road provided the normal MF expenditure for this two-hex move is ≤ the unit's available MF. [errata included] For purposes of determining the legality of a Dash move, any Location out of the LOS of a firer is also considered a non-Open Ground Location.

With that in mind, can a Unit under any circumstances declare a Dash from 24N5 --> N6 --> M7.

Why or why not?

Thanks,

Commie

 

[Eagle4ty]

The Dash rule states:

4.63 DASH: Infantry may declare a Dash through a road Location if it declares a Dash move to a particular location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road provided the normal MF expenditure for this two-hex move is ≤ the unit's available MF. [errata included] For purposes of determining the legality of a Dash move, any Location out of the LOS of a firer is also considered a non-Open Ground Location.

With that in mind, can a Unit under any circumstances declare a Dash from 24N5 --> N6 --> M7.

Why or why not?

Thanks,

Commie

Let's assume the firing unit is in 24P7 and no LOS exists to either N5 or M7 making them non-OG to the firer. I see no problem as the road from O7 extends to the center dot of N6 & that's where fire would be traced to thus allowing him to dash from one side of the road to the other. In no instance does it say the road must continue trough two opposite hexsides to be inclusive for allowing a dash situation.

 

[zgrose]

I’m missing which road you’ve crossed in that Dash, Eagle4ty. If it is the road from N4 into M7, you’re still on that road. N4 to O7, you havent crossed it and M7 to O7, you’re still on it.

I don’t think your image is a legal Dash as you’ve crossed no road.

 

[von Marwitz]

The best way to 'remember' Dash IMHO is that your unit must cross from one side of the road artwork to the other side of the artwork. If that ain't the case, then no Dash.

von Marwitz

 

[commissar1969]

Let's assume the firing unit is in 24P7 and no LOS exists to either N5 or M7 making them non-OG to the firer. I see no problem as the road from O7 extends to the center dot of N6 & that's where fire would be traced to thus allowing him to dash from one side of the road to the other. In no instance does it say the road must continue trough two opposite hexsides to be inclusive for allowing a dash situation.

No, it doesn't say two opposite hexside, but it says from one side of the road to the other side. Von Marwitz and zgrose are correct, I think.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Let's assume the firing unit is in 24P7 and no LOS exists to either N5 or M7 making them non-OG to the firer. I see no problem as the road from O7 extends to the center dot of N6 & that's where fire would be traced to thus allowing him to dash from one side of the road to the other. In no instance does it say the road must continue trough two opposite hexsides to be inclusive for allowing a dash situation.

No, it doesn't say two opposite hexside, but it says from one side of the road to the other side. Von Marwitz and zgrose are correct, I think.

The road he is dashing across is O7-M6. Show me in the rules where it says the road must extend into M6 & I may reconsider my answer.

1. Is there a road in M6 that emenates from O7?
2. Is there a rule the road must exit the opposite hexside as the road enters the hex from?
3. At which point is a LOS/LOF drawn to for a Dash and if so does the shot and position of the target qualify as crossing that road (or portion)?

 

[Neal]

Yes, because 24N6 is a "road Location" (regardless of it being an intersection), and N5 and M7 LOS is blocked. The criteria for a Dash have been met.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Dash is possible. See the A4.63 example, where a unit is Dashing from CC8 to AA7. The last sentence is "None of this would change if the road ended in BB7, or if there were another road running from AA7 to CC8."

 

[EagleIV]

The problem is that while 24N6 is a road, the dashing unit isn't crossing any of the roads in that location. It is possible to dash from 24N5 to 24N7, or from 24O6 to 24M7, or from 24O7 to 24M6 as each of this the unit starts on one side of a road and ends up on the other side of that same road.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

24N6 is the equivalent of the example in the rules with the road ending in B7, and another road running from AA7 to CC8. The unit in the example would still be Dashing with regard to the Y9 unit (or the 24P7 unit).

 

[Neal]

The problem is that while 24N6 is a road, the dashing unit isn't crossing any of the roads in that location. It is possible to dash from 24N5 to 24N7, or from 24O6 to 24M7, or from 24O7 to 24M6 as each of this the unit starts on one side of a road and ends up on the other side of that same road.

The rule doesn't say you have to start on "one side of a road (depiction) and end up on the other side of the same road (depiction)", only that the unit move from non-open ground (out of LOS) Location, into a road Location, into a non-open ground (out of LOS) Location, and move no further.

It would be be the same as if N5 and M7 didn't have road depictions and were OG, but still out of LOS. As Scott points out, the RB speaks exactly to this situation in the example.

 

[EagleIV]

The rules say you have to start on one side of a road and end up on the other side of the road. That means when you are in the middle of the road (N6 in the OP) not counting the hexes you started in and will end in; there must be 2 other road hexes one on your right and one on your left (3 contiguous road hexes with the middle one the one you are crossing). Otherwise you are not CROSSING a road, but merely entering a road hex.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Well, if he states he is dashing from one side of the N6-O7 road to the other, then that would appear legal:

Infantry may declare a Dash through a road Location if it declares a Dash move to a particular location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road provided the normal MF expenditure for this two-hex move is ≤ the unit's available MF.

The road he is dashing from one side to the other is N6-O7.

 

[Sparafucil3]

The road he is dashing across is O7-M6. Show me in the rules where it says the road must extend into M6 & I may reconsider my answer.

1. Is there a road in M6 that emenates from O7?
2. Is there a rule the road must exit the opposite hexside as the road enters the hex from?
3. At which point is a LOS/LOF drawn to for a Dash and if so does the shot and position of the target qualify as crossing that road (or portion)?

So this argument comes up time and time again. To be fair, the rules don't really says what "one side of the road to the other" means. This one is particularly nasty going specifically by the rules. IMO, this a legal DASH for the ROAD segment M7-N6-O7. A thread pulled from N5 to M7 will originate on one side of the road in M7 and terminate on the other side of the road in M7 making the DASH barely legal. Had the artwork for the road been touching the center dot as in O7, the DASH would not be legal IMO. If sent to Perry though, I could see him saying the unit isn't in a Location on the "other side" of the road but rather still on the Road and not fulfilling the requirement. As I said, this one is particularly nasty but I would allow it.

IMO, when the rules say "one side of the road to the other", the way to resolve is to pull a thread from the originating point to the destination. If the thread crosses a road segment from one side of the road artwork to the other, then the DASH is legal. The rules sadly aren't that clear on this. -- jim

 

[Sparafucil3]

The rule doesn't say you have to start on "one side of a road (depiction) and end up on the other side of the same road (depiction)", only that the unit move from non-open ground (out of LOS) Location, into a road Location, into a non-open ground (out of LOS) Location, and move no further.

A4.63 DASH: ... and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road ...

I am not sure how this could be read any other way than to make it a requirement to "start on one side of a road and end up on the other side". IMO, understanding that a DASH MUST cross a road segment is key to understanding whether a DASH is legal or not. Then it's a simple matter of drawing a thread from the origin to the destination and seeing of the thread lays across a road segment in the middle Road Location. As noted above, this is true (barely) in the map clip provided. -- jim

 

[Sparafucil3]

The road he is dashing from one side to the other is N6-O7.

And this is the EDGE case with the "thread rule" I am chatting about here. This is the case the rules don't cover very well. Ignoring all other roads but the segment N6-O7 I can see an argument for both sides. Clearly, a thread pulled from N5 - N7 crosses a road and thus fulfills the requirement of "on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into ... (a) Location on the other side". The Dash from N5 to M7--even while moving through an interim Road Location--does not technically move from "one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into ... (a) Location on the other side" even while I can see the argument suggesting it should be a legal Dash. IMO, a strict reading of the rules makes this an illegal Dash but the fact there is no clear definition of what ""on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into ... (a) Location on the other side" really means, we see this exact question asked OVER and OVER again and it always comes down to how do you interpret this edge case. I know Steve Pleva has submitted a Q&A on this type of question before. I don't believe he has ever received an answer. I do not see it Klas' Q&A. I also don't see an Albany special rule covering this situation which kind of surprises me. Again, JMO, YMMV. -- jim

 

[commissar1969]

Well, if he states he is dashing from one side of the N6-O7 road to the other, then that would appear legal:

Infantry may declare a Dash through a road Location if it declares a Dash move to a particular location prior to moving, and then moves from a non-Open Ground Location on one side of the road directly into the road and then directly into a non-Open Ground Location on the other side of the road provided the normal MF expenditure for this two-hex move is ≤ the unit's available MF.

The road he is dashing from one side to the other is N6-O7.

You're concentrating on the "non-Open Ground" aspect and forgetting the "one side of the road [...] on the other side of the road."

 

[commissar1969]

View attachment 17556
Dash is possible. See the A4.63 example, where a unit is Dashing from CC8 to AA7. The last sentence is "None of this would change if the road ended in BB7, or if there were another road running from AA7 to CC8."

This completely misses the question (no offense). I'm not talking about what's considered non-Open Ground. I'm talking about the "one side to the other side of the road" aspect of the rule. I do appreciate the response, though!

 

[Sparafucil3]

This completely misses the question (no offense). I'm not talking about what's considered non-Open Ground. I'm talking about the "one side to the other side of the road" aspect of the rule. I do appreciate the response, though!

I think here, we have to appeal to common sense. If I tell you "the ice cream shop is on the other side of the road", you intrinsically know exactly what I mean. Perhaps that's why this isn't clearly defined in the rule book. Perhaps when designing the game, people just expected some things to be common knowledge. I don't know. As I said, this EXACT question get's asked seemingly every few months. -- jim

 

[ScottRomanowski]

This completely misses the question (no offense).

I think it does answer the question. The example says that a unit moving from CC8 to AA7 can Dash; the unit in Y9 can only fire with 2FP at it in BB7. The last sentence says that this would not change if the road ended in BB7. The last sentence also says that nothing would change if there was a road running from CC8 to AA7.
So if the only roads were the purple lines in this image, CC8 could still dash to AA7, and Y9 would fire vs a Dashing unit in BB7. This is an odd situation but it's what the rules say.