Dash and the woods/road hex

sfcmikej

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A unit does a dash from a covered hex, through a woods road hex, to another covered hex. A4.132 seems to indicate that the unit would get the benefit of the woods for the dash. The firelane goes straight down the road and never touches the woods. However the Dash rules (A4.63) indicates that FFMO/FFNAM apply normally. My interpretation of that is that they apply because he is dashing in the road (open ground), my opponent feels that the woods modifier should apply because of A4.132. The difference is a 4 flat or a 4 -2. Not sure how to play this one and I didn't see anything in the Dash rules that handle this particular situation.

Any ideas?

Mike
 

klasmalmstrom

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B13.31 handles this I believe.

13.31 A moving unit in a combination woods-road hex is not eligible for the +1 woods TEM during Defensive First Fire (and is subject to FFMO/Interdiction) if the LOS does not cross a green woods symbol and the moving unit entered the hex at the road movement rate regardless of the relative elevations of the firer/target. (See A4.132.) Otherwise, the normal woods TEM is in effect [EXC: a vehicle(s) in a woods-road hex is always considered on the road unless beneath a partial Trail Break counter].

Since it did not enter using the road movement rate, FFMO does no apply and the +1 TEM does. Don't think it is different for a Fire Lane.
 

EagleIV

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My question is did you spend 1 MF (the road rate) entering the hex, or 2MF (the woods rate)? There are combinations of hexes for each of the cases.
 

Larry

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If you could enter a road woods hex with 1MF, could you qualify for a dash at all?
 

Pyth

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Ah paths ...
11977

There's a few Woods-Road intersections too. I think an MMC beginning in P4 could dash thru P5 to P6. An enemy in R6 could DFF with 1/2FP - 2 (with FFMO and FFNAM.) The unit in P4 would not have the usual option to enter P5 with non-road MF if using Dash because Dash rules stipulate the unit: may expend no MF in the road or the Dashed-to location beyond the minimum required to enter. "
 

jrv

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View attachment 11977

There's a few Woods-Road intersections too. I think an MMC beginning in P4 could dash thru P5 to P6. An enemy in R6 could DFF with 1/2FP - 2 (with FFMO and FFNAM.) The unit in P4 would not have the usual option to enter P5 with non-road MF if using Dash because Dash rules stipulate the unit: may expend no MF in the road or the Dashed-to location beyond the minimum required to enter. "
The problem with using a woods-road hex to enter is that a unit entering would be using the road movement rate. Because of that, despite moving "across" the firer's LOS, the moving unit would receive FFMO. That would be different from the problem posed in the original question, i.e. that the moving unit receive TEM from the woods.

JR
 

Philippe D.

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Aren't you always allowed, when moving in a woods-road hex, to pay the woods rate? I know it seems strange, but from my reading of the rules, one could Dash through the woods-road hex paying woods rate, and thus avoid FFMO.
 

Larry

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Aren't you always allowed, when moving in a woods-road hex, to pay the woods rate? I know it seems strange, but from my reading of the rules, one could Dash through the woods-road hex paying woods rate, and thus avoid FFMO.
Pertaining to EagleIV question about 1 MF. JRV points out that entering on a path might use 1 MF and still qualify.
 

Pyth

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Aren't you always allowed, when moving in a woods-road hex, to pay the woods rate? I know it seems strange, but from my reading of the rules, one could Dash through the woods-road hex paying woods rate, and thus avoid FFMO.
You are allowed to move at woods rate. That doesn't mean you are allowed to Dash. As I read them, the Dash rules that prohibit that extra MF spent in the hex.
 

Eagle4ty

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You are allowed to move at woods rate. That doesn't mean you are allowed to Dash. As I read them, the Dash rules that prohibit that extra MF spent in the hex.
I believe the Woods Road Location is the only thing that's referenced in the sentence,"...may expend no MF in the road or the Dashed-to location beyond the minimum required to enter, ..." as there is no hyphen after "Dashed-to" that would denote the term "location" only applies to the final destination, but does to both the dashed-thru and dashed-to locations. Also, B3.3 states "The other terrain in a road hex determines any TEM of that hex." nor does B3.43 ROAD-NEGATING TERRAIN seem to apply to the situation. Therefore, I believe that one could dash through a woods road location at a cost 2MF for entry of the hex and forego an FFMO penalty.
 

Pyth

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I read your post Eagle and I still don't understand how you think "may expend no MF in the road... beyond the minimum..." the hypens in 'dashed-to' not withstanding.... means that you can spend 2 MF there. The phrase "expend no MF in the road" cannot be independent of "beyond the minimum."

This is truly an edge case that comes up one in a zillion games -- Dashing thru a woods-road intersection. I want to agree with you Eagle. I think it makes perfect sense that a unit can dash across a woods road intersection, from whereever, and pay 2 MF and avoid FFMO. I'm so ok with that. But I also honestly think that if someone (but not me) wanted to be a psychopathic rules lawyer, the rules text of "may expend no MF in the road... beyond the minimum" means you must spend the minimum MF in the road hex. What else could it mean? It certainly doesn't mean you can't expend MF at all,because that would mean you can't dash, at all. What completes the thought... "may expend no MF in the road..."? because something must complete it.

If you want me to sign a statement saying it's better your way, I will sign! But I think the rule text supports the other interpretation.

(FWIW as I read it you've also got to spend the minimum in the dashed to location. Eg. If the dashed to location is a multilevel building you enter the ground floor, only. In the intersection case, If it's a woods-road intersection you dash thru and the dashed to location is woods road. You've got to spend road mf in that destination too. No dashing into woods if the destination hex is connecting woods-road you've entered from a road hexside. This could potentially nullify the dash by turning the destination into Open Ground. )
 

Eagle4ty

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I read your post Eagle and I still don't understand how you think "may expend no MF in the road... beyond the minimum..." the hypens in 'dashed-to' not withstanding.... means that you can spend 2 MF there. The phrase "expend no MF in the road" cannot be independent of "beyond the minimum."

This is truly an edge case that comes up one in a zillion games -- Dashing thru a woods-road intersection. I want to agree with you Eagle. I think it makes perfect sense that a unit can dash across a woods road intersection, from whereever, and pay 2 MF and avoid FFMO. I'm so ok with that. But I also honestly think that if someone (but not me) wanted to be a psychopathic rules lawyer, the rules text of "may expend no MF in the road... beyond the minimum" means you must spend the minimum MF in the road hex. What else could it mean? It certainly doesn't mean you can't expend MF at all,because that would mean you can't dash, at all. What completes the thought... "may expend no MF in the road..."? because something must complete it.

If you want me to sign a statement saying it's better your way, I will sign! But I think the rule text supports the other interpretation.

(FWIW as I read it you've also got to spend the minimum in the dashed to location. Eg. If the dashed to location is a multilevel building you enter the ground floor, only. In the intersection case, If it's a woods-road intersection you dash thru and the dashed to location is woods road. You've got to spend road mf in that destination too. No dashing into woods if the destination hex is connecting woods-road you've entered from a road hexside. This could potentially nullify the dash by turning the destination into Open Ground. )
Yes, thankfully it is an edge case as I can certainly see it being ruled either way. However, after review of the pertinent rules as stated I think I may be correct. Not too sure it would be worth a Q to Perry, but would certainly be an interesting reasoning behind a response regardless of the outcome.:unsure:
 
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