Dare Death question

[JoeArthur]

Hi,

This came up today:

Chinese officer sent a Dare Death squad on its way. According to G18.6 it has a "designated target". So does it keep going to that or do the beserk rules apply once it has gone beserk?

The issue we had was that the Dare Death was adjacent to an enemy unit but its target was another enemy unit three hexes away. Which does it charge and why?

Any help much appreciated please.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

G18.6: "The berserk MMC must then charge that enemy unit (now considered its Designated Target) and attempt to enter its Location."

This sure sounds like it ignores the normal berserk charge rules.

 

[Doug Leslie]

Hi,

This came up today:

Chinese officer sent a Dare Death squad on its way. According to G18.6 it has a "designated target". So does it keep going to that or do the beserk rules apply once it has gone beserk?

The issue we had was that the Dare Death was adjacent to an enemy unit but its target was another enemy unit three hexes away. Which does it charge and why?

Any help much appreciated please.

In the absence of anything in G18.6 to the contrary, I would assume that normal berserk rules apply and the dare death squad should charge the nearest known enemy unit. Not clear what happens if another closer enemy unit comes into view during the charge though.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I guess one can interpret "must charge...attempt to enter" as not overring A15.

 

[johnl]

Per G18.6 Dare Death units are already berserk so I think they would just keep charging their designated target.

 

[JoeArthur]

This sure sounds like it ignores the normal berserk charge rules.

That was the conclusion that we came to Klas.............

Is it an ask Perry?

Many thanks for the help everyone.

 

[Eagle4ty]

In the absence of anything in G18.6 to the contrary, I would assume that normal berserk rules apply and the dare death squad should charge the nearest known enemy unit. Not clear what happens if another closer enemy unit comes into view during the charge though.

However, G18.6 doesn't reference A15.4 other than to say A15.41 is NA. I believe the DD units would continue to charge his designated target as pointed out in the rule.

 

[Doug Leslie]

However, G18.6 doesn't reference A15.4 other than to say A15.41 is NA. I believe the DD units would continue to charge his designated target as pointed out in the rule.

Reference to A15.4 has to be implied though, since otherwise the use of the word "berserk" would be meaningless

 

[Eagle4ty]

If the DD squads used the standard "Berserk" counters I would be more inclined to agree with you. However, the game system saw it as distinct enough to provide a different Berserk Counter to differentiate the different nature of the status (at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it---until overruled by Perry).

 

[Doug Leslie]

If the DD squads used the standard "Berserk" counters I would be more inclined to agree with you. However, the game system saw it as distinct enough to provide a different Berserk Counter to differentiate the different nature of the status (at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it---until overruled by Perry).

The reason for this seems to be that, unlike normal berserk units, dare death squads that go berserk voluntarily will lose their berserk status at the end of that player turn unless in melee.
The rule could certainly do with clarification. Worth a PS IMHO.

 

[Larry]

It seems clear that A15.42 applies. Dare Death MMC have a morale of 10. So at least some of A15.4 applies.
A15.46 does not apply. The inability to participate in a HW or advance are repeated in G18.6 and 18.61.

The biggest difference is in target selection. In A15.4, the berserk unit charges the KEU and will divert to a closer KEU if it stumbles across one on the way to the first KEU. That isn't true with a red-on-white voluntary berserk status. Those units charge the "that enemy unit", the one designated by the leader invoking the berserk status. Each unit joining the party must charge "that same enemy unit." The other big difference is the return to normal at the end of the player turn.

The higher alpha-numeric rule controls. These berserk units are diet-berserk. They have not lost control and entered blood lust, they are following orders. Fn. 47 illustrates why the dare death squads were selected and used a shock troops.

A15.43 does not apply. Those target selection problems are NA. The question in my mind is whether the unit must use the shortest path, i.e., bypassing a perfectly good building.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I am pretty sure that "charge" in the rules means the same as a normal berserker - i.e., shortest route in MF.

 

[Nearmiss]

What will the Berzerk DD unit do if it will enter a non-designated target unit's location on the way to the designated target? We have played that the DD Berzerker may use any path it desires, as long as it reaches it's target.

 

[rreinesch]

A side question on this, once a DD squad enters it's designated target hex, and let's assume they kill their target. By definition they return back to normal. But does that mean they are no longer a Dare Death squad? Or does it mean that since they are still alive that they can be leveraged again for another DD target designation?

 

[rottenroller]

I would say normal = non-berserk and still a DD squad.

May DD squads always die, so never had to think about returning to normal.

 

[JoeArthur]

Stumbled acroos this in "Tips from the Trenches" - the trouble is these article have been known to be wrong

ASL Journal 12, page 11.
The Chinese player (whether G.M.D. or Red Chinese) may secretly designate up to 10% of the (non-5-3-7) squads (only) in his OB as Dare-Death squads (G18.6), allowing each to go voluntarily Berserk at the start of its MPh. In order to do so, such an armed, Good Order Infantry squad must be capable of moving that MPh, be ADJACENT to a Good Order Personnel leader that is not marked with a fire/Pin/TI counter, and be within 8 MF of an enemy ground unit to which it and the leader have an LOS and which it can reach that MPh. Having voluntarily become Berserk, the squad (and perhaps accompanying SMC) charge like regular Berserk units, but return to normal status at the end of the Player Turn (unless in Melee). The qualifying leader may have already moved in that MPh into position to launch the squad’s charge and could even be a Passenger or Rider. Even if the Dare-Death Squad never goes Berserk, however, it can enter into and resolve Hand-to-Hand CC as if Japanese and additionally receives an extra -1 DRM in regular CC (vs Personnel) if armed and unpinned.

 

[Stewart]

Stumbled acroos this in "Tips from the Trenches" - the trouble is these article have been known to be wrong

Seeing the argument of charging other units is clear.
However, in the Berzerk rules, there is no reference to a Designated Target.
And with the other variations (voluntary, return to normal,etc), it should be deemed different from a normal berzerk unit.

 

[JoeArthur]

Sent a message to MMP - if I get an answer I'll post it here.

 

[JoeArthur]

The reply from Perry:

It has a Designated Target, which is not influenced by other enemy units.

....Perry
MMP

Also posted in the Perry says thread.

 

[Vinnie]

So what if it enters an enemy units location? I suspect they get ignored by the DR squad but have to fire at them as per the normal rukes.