Dare death charge

Pyth

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Yikes -- just saw Binchois' post which is going to take some study :unsure: and CT Knudsens reply which will take even more study! ... jeez -- without getting into all that (yet) ...

Here's a Draft Q&A (comments solicited)

Question to Perry Cocke:

Does the entry of a Berserker into the Location of a concealed infantry defender during the Mph cause defender to lose concealment if there is a GO Attacker with LOS (less than 17 hexes) to the entered location? Same question but instead there is no GO Attacker with LOS to the entered location? Do the answers to the above change if instead the Berserking units are a Dare Death Squad accompanied by a Dare Death leader that have the concealed unit's location as their Designated Target?

Informationally -- These questions seeks to clarify apparent conflicts between A12.15, A12.14, A15.431, and the concealment table regarding berserkers as triggers to concealment loss. Also, See recent Game Squad discussion
 
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Binchois

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I am leaning back toward MajorDomo's interpretation above; that A15.431 confirms that berzerkers strip concealment per A12.15. It just makes more sense for me. Otherwise the design effect is to make an exception that really only applies to the very rare situations I outlined above.
I am still favoring my analysis above (post #19), but I believe the term of art is "YMMV." While it confusing as presented, I don't think that A15.431 contradicts A12.15 (I don't see contradictions in any of this, really):

A15.431 ...Similarly, if [a Berserk unit] moves into a concealed enemy's Location and reveals it (12.15) while charging another unit, the berserker must remain in this hex and attempt to eliminate all enemy units therein instead.​

A12.15 DETECTION: ...Whenever a non-berserk enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit attempts to move into a Location containing a concealed unit during the MPh [EXC: Bypass (12.151) ], the DEFENDER must immediately reveal at least one concealed unit in that Location and thereby force the moving unit back (even from a Wire Location) to the last Location occupied before entering his Location [EXC: units allowed to enter an enemy Location during the MPh; 4.14] where it will lose Concealment and end its MPh (unless it goes Berserk first) and is subject to possible Defensive First Fire attack (or, in the case of a routing unit, eliminated or captured for Failure to Rout; 10.533).​
A15.431 doesn't say that a Berserker automatically strips enemy concealment upon entering, it simply refers us to A12.15 and then explains what would happen should concealment have to be stripped. But as discussed above, there are several cases - nothing but dummies; nothing but an unarmed SMC; or the invoking of G.4 (which explicitly is written as an exception to A12.15) - that could still leave Zerkies among question marks in a shared Location. G.4 is by no means an insignificant situation. Moreover, in a scenario where the DEFENDER is granted many OoB dummies, it could be unfair to allow the accidents of a berserker charge to remove them (even when the enemy knows a stack is a dummy, it can still useful as sniper bait and to prevent concealment gain).

But what is the in-game effect behind this design? Really, we are talking about 2 extremely rare situations. First, a berzerker enters a Location containing no units capable of Defensive Fire. Second, a berzerker enters a Location with units who are capable of defensive fire, but there are no GO units on the 'zerker side that have LOS to that location (inside 16 hexes).
And here we agree - I am not sure if the result is by accident or by design. But I think there is both realism and gameplay justification for my thinking: berserkers should be prevented from killing off the dummy stacks that they should be ignoring; an unarmed SMC would not be inclined to show himself (and could, besides, more-easily hunker down while the Zerkies furiously run past); and Dare Death Squads are given a bit more "free will" to consider a concealed stack as an actual target. But if a DDS does select a dummy stack, it should be assumed that they at least believe there to be actual units present. Thus, they won't go looking for other targets. Rather, they will remain in the Location to make sure no enemy - not even a lone SMC - is hiding out in the area. This prevents using DDSs as some weird form of reconnaissance to delete a bunch of assumed dummy stacks.

Here is my effort at the question(s), though it is entirely possible that someone has already submitted (a better) one.

A12.15, A15.431, G18.6

1. Does the fact that a moving unit is berzerk remove the requirement for a DEFENDER unit to immediately reveal at least one concealed unit before the berzerker enters the DEFENDER Location, assuming that G.4 is not a factor?

2. If yes (or no), can a unit which has no FP and is therefore not capable of TPBF (including dummies) maintain concealment while the berzerker is in the hex, assuming that G.4 is not a factor?

3. If yes, and the Berzerker is a Dare-Death MMC who is charging it's target which consists of a dummy stack (and/or units that cannot TPBF as in 2., but can maintain concealment, if so decided), does the Dare-Death MMC A). select a new target per A15.431, B). Select a new target per G18.6, or C). End it's MPh and lose Berzerk status as per G18.6.

3A. If B), must it have a leader stacked with/adjacent per G18.6 to be able to do so, and if so, what happens if no such leader is stacked with/adjacent?

4. If yes, and there is no GO ATTACKER unit within 16 hexes in LOS of the Location being entered, do the units conducting TPBF maintain concealment, with any surviving Berzerker continuing on to its target?

Have I covered all the bases here?
Again, I think my interpretation works within the existing rules and has a satisfactory effect on realism and gameplay. The fact that you require so many questions to clear all this up suggests that my solution might just hold up. But to the degree that we all question the actual intent of the RB here, I think your questions are all on point. Cheers!
 

Pyth

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Ok. Took into account CTKnudsen's and Binchois' input and I think I've actually got this boiled down to a resonable, comprehensible, set of Questions. I'm pretty happy with this and am going to send it along unless someone objects:

To Perry Cocke:

In all Q's below assume G .4 plays no part, exceptions for voluntary concealment loss are not considered, and all movement is in the Berserker's Mph...

  1. Do Berserkers entering a location occupied only by concealed/HIP units release the defender from the obligation to momentarily reveal at least one real unit?
  2. Do Berserkers themselves cause a concealment loss trigger to concealed/HIP defenders by entering their location, so that as long as there is also a Good Order attacker with los to the location, concealment strip can be claimed ... (as I think Concealment Table Case A suggests)
  3. ...Or can Berserkers only provoke a concealment loss action (such as TPBF) from a defender....
3a. ...which enables some units, such as those which cannot be compelled to defensive TPBF, (such as dummy units and some SMC) the possibility of retaining concealment despite Berserker entry and Good Order in-LOS witnesses.
4. In all cases above, is Defender concealment loss always dependent on at least one Good Order Attacker having LOS to the Berserkers' entry of the Defender location? IOW -- is it true an unassisted Beserker can never cause a concealment loss that requires LOS because Berserkers are not Good Order units?

5. Finally, in the Questions above, if "Dare Death Squad" replaced "Berserker(s)" would any answers be changed?

Informationally: These questions seek clarifications for conflicting readings of A12.15, A12.14, A15.431 -- See recent Game Squad discussion for more background.
 

CTKnudsen

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Just wondering if anyone actually submitted a Q to Perry - or did we all just assume one of the others had done it and awaited the answer?
 

Pyth

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I submitted a Question much like my last version in this thread... Aug 16 or thereabouts... havent heard back... maybe the Q was too baggy and complex... maybe Perry is busy/on vacay... and he's yet to get to it.

I used an old address i had for Q's.... what is the current correct email address for official Q's from MMP? (Using the wrong address possible reason for the delay as well.)
 

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View attachment 9959

Squad in E1 is a dare-death squad. the 7-0 has just motivated the lads to go beserk and charge F1.

When they enter F1, the dummies are removed. Does the berserk death squad then charge G2 with its remaining MP or stop in its initial target hex?

Thanks,
Rich
I have some follow-up questions re this EX.

1. Is there anything in G18.6 that prevents the Dare-Death Squad (DDS) from declaring G2 as its Designated Target?

If so, would the DDS necessarily "detect," and thus reveal, the "enemy ground unit" in F1 when it enters this hex?

Would the DDS "detect" a hypothetical hidden Observer in F1?

2. Would the answers be the same if G2 was the target of Charging Cavalry (originating in D0)?

A12.121 Concealment Loss/Gain Table Case A is in Location that enemy Infantry/Cavalry attempt to enter during the MPh/RtPh
emphasis added

G18.6 Each armed, Good Order Infantry Dare-Death Squad (or its surviving HS) that at the start of its MPh is in/ADJACENT-to a Location containing an unpinned, Good Order, friendly Personnel leader, and that is within eight MF of an enemy ground unit to which it and that leader have a LOS, may at that time go berserk voluntarily ... The berserk MMC must then charge that enemy unit (now considered its Designated Target) and attempt to enter its Location.
emphasis added

A13.6 CHARGE: Cavalry may Charge a Known-enemy-occupied Location, provided it declares a Charge vs that Location while in the LOS of and at a range of ≥ three hexes from it, is Galloping (or declares a Gallop) when it declares the Charge, can Gallop into that Location, and pays three MF (simultaneously with the cost to enter the target Location) to make the attack.
emphasis added

Q&A A12.15 exempts Human Waves from causing concealment loss via the normal entry procedures and presumably overrides the “attempts to enter” phrasing on the Concealment Loss Table despite the lack of reference back to A12.15.

A. No. Delete “Human Wave (25.23)” in line 5 of A12.15.
 
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