Dare death charge

MajorDomo

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Squad in E1 is a dare-death squad. the 7-0 has just motivated the lads to go beserk and charge F1.

When they enter F1, the dummies are removed. Does the berserk death squad then charge G2 with its remaining MP or stop in its initial target hex?

Thanks,
Rich
 

Mister T

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NRBH, but i thought zerkers can target only KEU. So here the DD declaration would be NA.
 

Jeff Sewall

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NRBH, but i thought zerkers can target only KEU. So here the DD declaration would be NA.
That's what I thought at first, but I am RBH and I looked it up. DD squads only need to target a unit, unlike berserkers.

I believe they have to stop, since they have entered the target unit's Location. A dummy stack is a unit.
 

MajorDomo

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Why is the dummy removed?

JR
A12.15 ......

A concealed unit's "?" is also lost immediately if it does any of the following in LOS of a Good Order enemy ground unit within 16 hexes (such potential LOS checks are free and require no attack or penalty for a blocked LOS):
  • uses Non-Assault Movement [EXC: behind bocage (B9.55) or between connected trenches (B27.54)]
  • moves/advances/withdraws into an Open Ground hex (as defined in A10.531),
  • directs fire or fires or is designated as an Opportunity Firer in a fire phase,
  • attacks in CC [EXC: an Ambush attack which eliminates/captures the defending unit(s); A11.4],
  • an enemy Infantry/Cavalry unit attempts to enter its Location (see A12.15) during the MPh/RtPh.
Since the berserker entered the ??'s hex and the 7-0 is both Good Order and has LOS to the ??s, bullet point #5 results in concealment loss.
 

jrv

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The reference is to A12.15, which says, "Whenever a non-berserk enemy unit enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit attempts to move into a Location containing a concealed unit during the MPh..."

When a berserk unit enters, it does not trigger off A12.15. Ordinarily the unit would lose concealment for being forced to TPBF, but in this case that isn't going to happen. I think the dummy does not lose concealment. There may be something else I'm missing, of course.

JR
 

Michael R

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The berserker trigger rule

A8.312 TPBF: An armed, unbroken Infantry DEFENDER not in Melee must after all Residual-FP/minefield/OBA attacks then immediately attack any Infantry/Cavalry MMC unit that enters its Location during the MPh...

This would make it obvious that the defender is a dummy, but I can't say if that would cause loss of concealment.
 

jrv

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The berserker trigger rule

A8.312 TPBF: An armed, unbroken Infantry DEFENDER not in Melee must after all Residual-FP/minefield/OBA attacks then immediately attack any Infantry/Cavalry MMC unit that enters its Location during the MPh...

This would make it obvious that the defender is a dummy, but I can't say if that would cause loss of concealment.
Might also be a leader.

JR
 

MajorDomo

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The reference is to A12.15, which says, "Whenever a non-berserk enemy unit enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit attempts to move into a Location containing a concealed unit during the MPh..."

When a berserk unit enters, it does not trigger off A12.15. Ordinarily the unit would lose concealment for being forced to TPBF, but in this case that isn't going to happen. I think the dummy does not lose concealment. There may be something else I'm missing, of course.

JR
A15.431 also supports that concealed units (dummies) can be revealed by Berserkers as per my previous post.

A15.431 ... If, in the act of charging the nearest Known enemy in its LOS, the berserk unit moves into the LOS of a closer (in hexes) Known enemy unit, he charges that unit from that point instead. Similarly, if it moves into a concealed enemy's Location and reveals it (A12.15) while charging another unit, the berserker must remain in this hex and attempt to eliminate all enemy units therein instead. Should the only Known enemy unit no longer be in his LOS in the interim, the berserk unit still charges toward the hex originally occupied by that unit. If it still sees no Known enemy unit, it ends its move after entering that Location, and the berserk status is removed at the end of that current phase. Otherwise, it continues its charge to the now nearest Known enemy unit.

This situation rarely happens as an armed unit must TPBF versus the Beserkers, a single man will probably be overrun by the Berserkers, so only Dummies are left.
 

CTKnudsen

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Unfortunately A12.15 is a little bit unclear. Is the EXC for "units allowed to enter an enemy location" referring to the "immediately reveal" part of the 2nd sentence, or just the "forced back" part?

If the former, then the unit in the hex being entered does not have to reveal anybody until it TBPFs, meaning a leader or dummy would stay concealed, and the berserker would in this case carry on into the hex with the KEU. If the latter, then the unit still has to reveal, eliminating a dummy stack, and causing a potential SMC to be OVR.

I think the latter is the best option, tbh.

As regards the original Q, assuming dummies are removed as above, I believe the unit would carry on to the adjacent KEU, as it has not met the requirements of A15.46, which requires elimination of all KEU in its Location.

Another interesting question occurs to me here as well: Assuming a concealed SMC in F1, above, does eliminating it during the OVR fulfill A15.46, which talks about "CC", but not the "CCPh"? It seems to me that COWTRA would indicate yes...
 

Jeff Sewall

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As regards the original Q, assuming dummies are removed as above, I believe the unit would carry on to the adjacent KEU, as it has not met the requirements of A15.46, which requires elimination of all KEU in its Location.
The Dare Death rules for terminating berserk status are not the same as the regular berserk rules. Also, the adjacent unit is not KEU since it is concealed. If this were a "regular" berserker, it would not have charged at all, assuming no non-pictured KEU.
 

CTKnudsen

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The Dare Death rules for terminating berserk status are not the same as the regular berserk rules. Also, the adjacent unit is not KEU since it is concealed. If this were a "regular" berserker, it would not have charged at all, assuming no non-pictured KEU.
Jeff, I'm not too sure that the differences change the situation above, assuming that dummies are removed. The DDS gets to pick a target, sure, but the rules don't mention what happens if the target is not actually at any point a KEU. A DDS loses berserk status at the end of it's CCPh, but I would argue that until then, if it's designated target was never a KEU, it is still berserk, and the last sentence of A15.431 applies.

But I've been wrong before!
 

Pyth

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A15.431 also supports that concealed units (dummies) can be revealed by Berserkers as per my previous post.

A15.431 ... If, in
Unfortunately A12.15 is a little bit unclear. Is the EXC for "units allowed to enter an enemy location" referring to the "immediately reveal" part of the 2nd sentence, or just the "forced back" part?

If the former, then the unit in the hex being entered does not have to reveal anybody until it TBPFs, meaning a leader or dummy would stay concealed, and the berserker would in this case carry on into the hex with the KEU. If the latter, then the unit still has to reveal, eliminating a dummy stack, and causing a potential SMC to be OVR.

I think the latter is the best option, tbh.
How has this not had a Perry sez yet... I've reread the relevant rules section a dozen times and keep coming up with different conclusions.


A12.15 and A15.431

Charging to the nearest KEU Berserkers enter a lone concealed enemy Leader's (no SW) location. Is the Leader automatically revealed by the Berserkers who stop their charge in the SMC's hex to attack it? or may the SMC retain concealment allowing the Berserkers to pass through? or even end their MPh in the concealed SMC's hex? What, if anything, changes if the Berserkers are instead a Dare Death Squad?


Does that seem correctly worded? And does this Perry Sez seem warranted?-- it feels so to me.
 

CTKnudsen

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I don't realistically think that there is any justification for the SMC (or dummies) to remain concealed when the berzerker enters it's hex, the first sentence of A12.15 notwithstanding.
But it's there, so...

I think the question really boils down to this:

How does entrance of a Location by a Berserk/Dare-Death unit affect the concealment status of a unit in that Location? Assume G.4 is not in play.

A. The units in the location are affected by A12.15 normally, and then must TBPF per A8.312. I.E. a unit(s) are immediately revealed, then the rest TBPF.

B. The units in the location do not have to reveal per A12.15, but must TPBF per A8.312.

If B, what happens if the concealed units are a dummy stack, or the only units in the Location are leaders, or there is a leader in the Location that chooses not to direct fire?

In other words, why does the second sentence of A12.15 contain the words "non-berserk"?
 

Pyth

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I don't realistically think that there is any justification for the SMC (or dummies) to remain concealed when the berzerker enters it's hex, the first sentence of A12.15 notwithstanding.
Well, I think both you and I lost sight of a major factor.... there has to be a good order unit in LOS for the concealed unit to lose concealment to... A12.14 seems very clear on that... so at least on that count alone my Perry Sez Q draft was inadequate.

I also dont understand how something can have "no justification" not withstanding what is written in the RB.

A better question needs to be drafted.
 

Pyth

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Actually the more I look at 12.14 the more I think you cant lose concealment TO Berserkers under any circumstances... a unit can TPBF at them from open ground -- it wont lose concealment to them... only good order units complete concealment loss, except in the case of a concealed unit getting broken, wounded/reduced (In which case concealment loss is automatically complete ... no los to anyone required)[edit -- case F on concealment chart... there are a couple other no GO unit in LOS concealment loss circumtances.]
To answer my own question, the reason there's been no Q&A regarding 12.15 is because 12.14.

And 12.14 also seems to me to say that Berserkers/Cavalry/any attacker will cause a concealment loss trigger for the concealed defender when entering a defender's hex if there is G.O. unit in LOS to complete the concealment loss.
 
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Vinnie

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If the berserkers enter and no one fires then they should attempt an infantry overrun. This should reveal an SMC.
 

CTKnudsen

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Well, I think both you and I lost sight of a major factor.... there has to be a good order unit in LOS for the concealed unit to lose concealment to... A12.14 seems very clear on that... so at least on that count alone my Perry Sez Q draft was inadequate.

I also dont understand how something can have "no justification" not withstanding what is written in the RB.

A better question needs to be drafted.
Huh - good point! This also explains why 12.15 specifically talks about non-berserk. So here is how I see the sequence of events, please pick holes in it as appropriate.

The berserk/DDS moves into the hex. No concealment is lost, as 12.15 specifically does not apply to berserk units. If DDS and that is its target, the DDS stops (? - still not 100% on this). At this point, A8.312 happens. Now it gets weird. If any other GO unit can see it when it TBPFs, the concealed unit(s) reveal, and the zerker stops moving, and things resolve normally. If not, then the 'zerker eats a quantum TBPF attack. If it survives, the 'zerker carries on to it's target, leaving behind a concealed unit(s) sporting at minimum a First Fire counter.

If dummies or leader(s), nothing happens. Concealment is not lost as the defenders, having no FP, cannot TPBF. The 'zerker (and maybe the DDS) carries on, and the opponent assumes that it's a dummy stack.

Sound correct maybe?

The reason I said "no justification" was that the whole thing, i.e. the inclusion of "non-berserk" in 12.15, seems kinda weird for me. Why have berserkers not strip per 12.15, if the next thing that is going to happen is TBPF in almost all cases? And it's a pretty rare occasion to begin with, that a 'zerker would happen through a concealed unit en-route to a target. I just can't think of a reason why berzerkers are excluded from 12.15, it just doesn't add up to a game effect that makes any sense for me. If concealment isn't stripped and noone fires, then the berserk player knows that the units are dummies, or maybe a leader, and will most likely ignore that stack from then on out. Now if 8.312 added "unconcealed" to "armed, unbroken, infantry", then this would make more sense, although that would change how people react to HW/Banzai quite a bit, and create a bunch more undesirable follow-on effects. It just seems that treating a berzerker the same as everybody else in terms of 12.15 makes a lot more sense in terms of design and effect. Does anyone know why berzerkers (and human wavers at one point, I think) were excluded?

Of course, YMMV, and if I'm talking nonsense, please correct me!
 

Binchois

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The reason I said "no justification" was that the whole thing, i.e. the inclusion of "non-berserk" in 12.15, seems kinda weird for me. Why have berserkers not strip per 12.15, if the next thing that is going to happen is TBPF in almost all cases? And it's a pretty rare occasion to begin with, that a 'zerker would happen through a concealed unit en-route to a target. I just can't think of a reason why berzerkers are excluded from 12.15, it just doesn't add up to a game effect that makes any sense for me. If concealment isn't stripped and noone fires, then the berserk player knows that the units are dummies, or maybe a leader, and will most likely ignore that stack from then on out. Now if 8.312 added "unconcealed" to "armed, unbroken, infantry", then this would make more sense, although that would change how people react to HW/Banzai quite a bit, and create a bunch more undesirable follow-on effects. It just seems that treating a berzerker the same as everybody else in terms of 12.15 makes a lot more sense in terms of design and effect. Does anyone know why berzerkers (and human wavers at one point, I think) were excluded?

Of course, YMMV, and if I'm talking nonsense, please correct me!
Possibly the "non-berserk" adjective was included in A12.15 to prevent thinking that they should first be bumped backwards whenever they attempt to enter concealed unit's Location. But this seems clear enough from the following EXCeption. Perhaps one of these qualifiers was added later and simply not edited sufficiently??

Really, this is a great thread with a question to Perry probably being a good idea. I'm satisfied that all of the answers can be found in the RB as is, but it is a little unclear if the results are actually by intention or by accident. Here is how I see it:

Back to the OP example, if the Chinese were ordinary Zerkies, they would see no KEU, not charge, and Return to Normal. If there was some other IJA KEU in H2 (and the hex was at Level 4), they would then designate and charge H2. Upon reaching the F1 dummies, they would receive no fire and would continue (having gained some "crazy" reconnaissance intel). In G2, they would trigger A12.15, not be bumped (due to the EXC), and force TPBF (unless terrain and G.4 allowed the DEFENDER to remain concealed).

As for the original question, the big difference is still that Dare Death Squads do not need a KEU. Any enemy unit - even concealed ones - can be used as a trigger. As I see it, the only weirdness that results is what happens in F1...

If F1 is not the designated target, then nothing. There is no reveal and no TPBF. The Chinese continue to charge.

If F1 was the designated target, then still nothing happens, but the Chinese cannot now pick another target - they did not yet destroy their target in CC. Even if they could now ignore the dummies, there are no special options given to DDSs. All Zerkies (even DDSs) would now be limited to only KNOWN enemy units:

A15.421 ...If it still sees no Known enemy unit, it ends its move after entering that Location, and the berserk status is removed at the end of that current phase. Otherwise, it continues its charge to the now nearest Known enemy unit.​
IMHO, the DDS's ability to designate any enemy unit as the initial target of their charge, does not grant them the ability to alter this last sentence of A15.421. But having said this, I still think not removing the dummies ("in CC") during the MPh means that the Chinese cannot now designate a new target (they are presumably still preoccupied with the enemy they think is hiding in their Location).

If F1 was targeted, but had a concealed SMC instead, the same thing would happen, and - I guess - the Chinese would Return to Normal, unless the SMC chose to reveal itself. If it reveals itself during the MPh, an OVR situation would develop - in which case the resulting CC could trigger a Return to Normal:

Q. (A15.432) May a berserk MMC conduct an Infantry OVR (A4.15)?​

A. Yes, and A4.152 applies automatically. That is, the MMC is subject to neither the NTC nor the increased MF expenditure normally required for an Infantry OVR, and the SMC does not have the option to enter another Location. If it eliminates the SMC, the MMC returns to normal (A15.46) and may continue its MPh if otherwise able and allowed to do so. [An90; An95w; An96; Mw]​

If G2 or H2 was the original target, then a concealed SMC in F1 could be revealed just to stop the Zerkies from continuing their charge. Otherwise, the concealed SMC/dummies could be ignored by the Chinese who are under no obligation to select the NEAREST enemy unit. They would continue to the original target.
 

CTKnudsen

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Possibly the "non-berserk" adjective was included in A12.15 to prevent thinking that they should first be bumped backwards whenever they attempt to enter concealed unit's Location. But this seems clear enough from the following EXCeption. Perhaps one of these qualifiers was added later and simply not edited sufficiently??

Really, this is a great thread with a question to Perry probably being a good idea. I'm satisfied that all of the answers can be found in the RB as is, but it is a little unclear if the results are actually by intention or by accident. Here is how I see it:
The phrasing of the question, though, is tough, as there is so much going on...

Back to the OP example, if the Chinese were ordinary Zerkies, they would see no KEU, not charge, and Return to Normal. If there was some other IJA KEU in H2 (and the hex was at Level 4), they would then designate and charge H2. Upon reaching the F1 dummies, they would receive no fire and would continue (having gained some "crazy" reconnaissance intel). In G2, they would trigger A12.15, not be bumped (due to the EXC), and force TPBF (unless terrain and G.4 allowed the DEFENDER to remain concealed).
But what is the in-game effect behind this design? Really, we are talking about 2 extremely rare situations. First, a berzerker enters a Location containing no units capable of Defensive Fire. Second, a berzerker enters a Location with units who are capable of defensive fire, but there are no GO units on the 'zerker side that have LOS to that location (inside 16 hexes).

As I see it, the only weirdness that results is what happens in F1...

If F1 is not the designated target, then nothing. There is no reveal and no TPBF. The Chinese continue to charge.

If F1 was the designated target, then still nothing happens, but the Chinese cannot now pick another target - they did not yet destroy their target in CC. Even if they could now ignore the dummies, there are no special options given to DDSs. All Zerkies (even DDSs) would now be limited to only KNOWN enemy units:

A15.421 ...If it still sees no Known enemy unit, it ends its move after entering that Location, and the berserk status is removed at the end of that current phase. Otherwise, it continues its charge to the now nearest Known enemy unit.​
IMHO, the DDS's ability to designate any enemy unit as the initial target of their charge, does not grant them the ability to alter this last sentence of A15.421. But having said this, I still think not removing the dummies ("in CC") during the MPh means that the Chinese cannot now designate a new target (they are presumably still preoccupied with the enemy they think is hiding in their Location).

If F1 was targeted, but had a concealed SMC instead, the same thing would happen, and - I guess - the Chinese would Return to Normal, unless the SMC chose to reveal itself. If it reveals itself during the MPh, an OVR situation would develop - in which case the resulting CC could trigger a Return to Normal:

Q. (A15.432) May a berserk MMC conduct an Infantry OVR (A4.15)?​

A. Yes, and A4.152 applies automatically. That is, the MMC is subject to neither the NTC nor the increased MF expenditure normally required for an Infantry OVR, and the SMC does not have the option to enter another Location. If it eliminates the SMC, the MMC returns to normal (A15.46) and may continue its MPh if otherwise able and allowed to do so. [An90; An95w; An96; Mw]​

If G2 or H2 was the original target, then a concealed SMC in F1 could be revealed just to stop the Zerkies from continuing their charge. Otherwise, the concealed SMC/dummies could be ignored by the Chinese who are under no obligation to select the NEAREST enemy unit. They would continue to the original target.
Agreed, if your assumption regarding A12.15 is correct.

I am leaning back toward MajorDomo's interpretation above; that A15.431 confirms that berzerkers strip concealment per A12.15. It just makes more sense for me. Otherwise the design effect is to make an exception that really only applies to the very rare situations I outlined above.

Here is my effort at the question(s), though it is entirely possible that someone has already submitted (a better) one.

A12.15, A15.431, G18.6

1. Does the fact that a moving unit is berzerk remove the requirement for a DEFENDER unit to immediately reveal at least one concealed unit before the berzerker enters the DEFENDER Location, assuming that G.4 is not a factor?

2. If yes (or no), can a unit which has no FP and is therefore not capable of TPBF (including dummies) maintain concealment while the berzerker is in the hex, assuming that G.4 is not a factor?

3. If yes, and the Berzerker is a Dare-Death MMC who is charging it's target which consists of a dummy stack (and/or units that cannot TPBF as in 2., but can maintain concealment, if so decided), does the Dare-Death MMC A). select a new target per A15.431, B). Select a new target per G18.6, or C). End it's MPh and lose Berzerk status as per G18.6.

3A. If B), must it have a leader stacked with/adjacent per G18.6 to be able to do so, and if so, what happens if no such leader is stacked with/adjacent?

4. If yes, and there is no GO ATTACKER unit within 16 hexes in LOS of the Location being entered, do the units conducting TPBF maintain concealment, with any surviving Berzerker continuing on to its target?

Have I covered all the bases here?
 
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